[alokin]

What Timo wrote made the most sense so far. I find it pretty silly to boil every problem to capitalism vs socialism down. Greece is no socialism but everyone cares to get the in-laws or a cousin into a government job, were they don't create anything useful but another form you have to fill in.
The main problem is the overboarding non functioning bureaucracy. In Greece you need hours to pay a telephone bill, days to get some form you probably need for filling out another form and you have to see two doctors before you can get into a public swimming pool. Try to make business there - and then you understand the bribery - you simply can't afford to spend days to get a permission to do something - that so you leave some notes.
60 EUR a day is actually a lot, given the fact that salaries are about 600 EUR a month, most people will not suffer getting only 60 because they don't have all that much. I don't know weather or not you can pay things online in Greece nowadays.

[ralfy]

"Goldman Sachs Doesn’t Have Clean Hands in Greece Crisis"

http://wallstreetonparade.com/2015/06/g ... ce-crisis/

[charmcitysking]

Does a bear shit in the woods and wipe his ass with a white bunny rabbit?

[SeaGypsy]

Well, um, no, actually.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y320-U151 using Tapatalk

[Timo]

Well, um, no, actually.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y320-U151 using Tapatalk

So tell us, SG. What does a bear wipe his butt with when he shits in the woods? You seem to know the answer to that question.

The real question, however, is when a bear craps in the woods, does anybody hear it?

My money is on the bunnies.

[Timo]

Actually, the only true question is when Greece defaults, will anybody notice?

And will it stink?

[Outcast_Searcher]

It was actually those Euro capitalists fault for lending it to them. It's really no different then the banking mortgage debacle here in the U.S.

Yes, it was the bankers' fault for all the liar loans by those wanting mortgages. It must be nice to live in a fantasy world where no personal responsibility exists.

Yes, because they followed corrupt standards. Other than pure greed there is no reason to loan individuals, let alone countries, money without assuring their ability to pay it back.

So lying is fine for individuals, especially irresponsible individuals, but you want to pillory corporations which make mistakes. So apparently balance and reasonableness plays no part in your value system?

[Timo]

It was actually those Euro capitalists fault for lending it to them. It's really no different then the banking mortgage debacle here in the U.S.

Yes, it was the bankers' fault for all the liar loans by those wanting mortgages. It must be nice to live in a fantasy world where no personal responsibility exists.

Yes, because they followed corrupt standards. Other than pure greed there is no reason to loan individuals, let alone countries, money without assuring their ability to pay it back.

So lying is fine for individuals, especially irresponsible individuals, but you want to pillory corporations which make mistakes. So apparently balance and reasonableness plays no part in your value system?

I don't think that's what Lore actually said. Care to try rephrasing that question again?

[Peak_Yeast]

After having thought a little about it I have gotten some doubts...

Greece owes approx. 331 billion euro.
The 331 are spread out over a number of countries - which makes it easier to handle... or does it?

The money has been lent by a lot of private people in other EU countries. - So it might hurt a lot of businesses around EU.

The debt is divided as follows:

Austria: 9,8 bil. euro. (3 pct. af GDP)
Belgium: 12 mia euro. (3 pct. af GDP)
Cypress: 0,4 mia euro. (2.4 pct. af GDP)
Estland: 0,8 mia. euro. (4 pct. af GDP)
Finland: 6,2 mia euro. (3 pct. af GDP)
France: 70,3 mia. euro. (3,3 pct. af GDP)
Germany: 92 mia euro. (3,2 pct. af GDP)
Greece: 4 mia. euro. (2,2 pct. af GDP)
Ireland: 2,6 mia. euro. (1,4 pct. af GDP)
Italy: 61,5 mia. euro. (3,8 pct. af GDP)
Malta: 0,4 mia. euro. (5 pct. af GDP)
Holland: 19,8 mia. euro. (3 pct. af GDP)
Portugal: 4,6 mia. euro. (2,6 pct. af GDP)
Slovakia: 3,1 mia. euro. (4,2 pct. af GDP)
Slovenia: 1,4 mia. euro. (3,9 pct. af GDP)
Spain: 42,3 mia. euro. (4 pct. af GDP)

Some of these countries are already on the brink of collapse. Just a little push might make a big difference for them.

Besides: Greece cannot pay the debt in any way. Extending new loanes without reducing the total debt burden will only exacerbate the problem making the collapse worse somewhere in the future.

But since a lot of the loans are in private hands - its unlikely that they will accept another downwriting of the debt (already written down by 50%).

The loans from ECB can best be understood as a conversion of debt from private to public debt, I suppose.

Is this another case of: Losses are socialized and profits privaticed?

I suspect so.

Greece will crash - only the timing is in question and who gets to pay (besides the greeks).

An interesting analysis can be seen here that is quite different from MSN:
http://www.socialeurope.eu/2015/06/euro ... democracy/

[charmcitysking]

Well, um, no, actually.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y320-U151 using Tapatalk

Where do you think brown bunnies came from?

[ohanian]

Why don't the Greeks just build a giant wooden horse.

And give it to their enemy? They did it before.

[Timo]

Maybe Tsipras should challenge Merkel to a game of Monopoly. There's lots of money to be made in that game.

Unfortunately, Merkel insists on playing the game of Life, while Tsirpas has his eyes set on Jenga.

Let me check my Ouija board to find out who will win.

My Magic 8 Ball says to ask it later.

Yahtzee!

[StarvingLion]

Greece is just a convenient scapegoat. France is bankrupt (can't rebuild its reactor fleet) and so is Germany (same problem as France). They can't keep the lights on anywhere in the EU or in "Great" Britain.

Thats where funny fiat money and communism ends up.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Greece is just a convenient scapegoat. France is bankrupt (can't rebuild its reactor fleet) and so is Germany (same problem as France). They can't keep the lights on anywhere in the EU or in "Great" Britain.

Thats where funny fiat money and communism ends up.

Well, Germany's net public debt is roughly 100% of its GDP less than Greece's. Germany's economy is growing. Germany is operating at a budget surplus. Germany's economy is generally considered to be the powerhouse of western Europe. So how is Germany "bankrupt" again?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany ... wth-annual

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany ... ent-budget

Or if you want to look at total government and projections, Greece and Germany are in a total different class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... nment_debt

"Good news" for Greece though: in terms of debt to GDP, they look better than Japan (which looks like a basket case due to demographic problems).

If you're going to make statements like the above and have no citations, how do you expect to be taken seriously?

[Tuike]

Here's answer to topic title:
Tsipras urges calm as EFSF declares Greece in default
The bad news mounted for Greece on Friday, with the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) declaring the country nominally in default.

[Fishman]

So lets step back from the who's to blame, and look at this from a peak oil point of view. Kunstler I think correctly articulated 4 days ago that economies struggle at the $70 barrel point (yes I know cheaper recently). If correct, then Greece is the first of many economies to go through default. The other side is drachmas at perhaps 40% less value. Other European countries to follow? Precipitation of war? Japan to follow? US to follow? I noticed an article that those with gardens are doing better off in Greece. Thoughts?

[onlooker]

Bailing out... the banks

This fundamental incomprehension translates into sharply opposed public opinions. The German mood in particular has soured over Greece’s perceived ingratitude. Europe's richest country has put up with the lion's share of Greek debt, accounting for €77 billion of the more than €310 billion forked out by Greece's lenders since the start of the crisis. No wonder the Germans are aggrieved when Athens accuses them of being ungenerous. But that is only one way of seeing the matter. What Germany doesn't – or would rather not – see is that cash-strapped Greeks never got the money, or only a fraction of it. More than 90% of the bailout money has gone to bailing out the German and other foreign banks that held Greek debt in the first place and then paying interest on Greece's debt, which is now much larger than it was at the start of the crisis.

This is how Greeks view the equation, and so did the non-European IMF delegates who warned against imposing such a programme back in 2010. Leaked minutes of high-level IMF meetings held at the time have shown that critics of the bailout deal imposed on Greece warned against doling out such harsh treatment on an ailing patient.

There is a strong case to argue that Greece's debt crisis is really about politics and the irreconcilable clash between Europe's political establishment and the first party to have genuinely challenged it.

Insanity'

IMF economists have been arguing for years that Greece's programme is unsustainable and in breach of the organisation's own rules on debt sustainability. It is a remarkable feature of the Greek debt crisis that Greece’s government has enjoyed such little (if any) support among fellow EU members when most economists, including such heavyweights as Nobel laureates Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, have consistently endorsed its analysis of Greece’s woes (namely, that the country’s debt is unsustainable and that austerity is making things worse) and blasted the “insanity” of its creditors. Both have urged Greek voters to reject further austerity by voting “No” in Sunday's referendum.

All this points to the true reality of the persecution of Greece and it's unjust treatment.
here is the full link to the entire article ===http://www.france24.com/en/20150701-eu-greece-grexit-tragedy-farce-tsipras-germany

[onlooker]

Early tally shows the NO vote barely won in Greece. Nevertheless, Greek PM seek a new deal with creditors and all indications are that the Greeks do not wish to leave the EU. So it will be interesting how flexible or not the creditors and Brussels with be.

[dolanbaker]

It's looking like a 60-40 in favour of a NO right now..

[Outcast_Searcher]

So lets step back from the who's to blame, and look at this from a peak oil point of view. Kunstler I think correctly articulated 4 days ago that economies struggle at the $70 barrel point (yes I know cheaper recently). If correct, then Greece is the first of many economies to go through default. The other side is drachmas at perhaps 40% less value. Other European countries to follow? Precipitation of war? Japan to follow? US to follow? I noticed an article that those with gardens are doing better off in Greece. Thoughts?

If economies "struggle" with oil at the $70 point, why was inflation-adjusted global GDP growth a good 3% during the 4 years (mid 2010 to mid-1014) crude oil prices averaged well over $85? It seems to me that if Kunstler were at all correct, gloabl GDP and the price trend in oil would have been strongly negative by the end of 2012, if not earlier.

http://www.infomine.com/investment/meta ... il/5-year/

Once Kunstler claimed that Y2K would "rock your world" and predicted massive systems failures, etc. -- and basically nothing happened (which as an IBM mainframe systems programmer who spent MUCH time and effort heavily testing various platforms to evaluate this -- I was certain would be the case), Kunstler's value as a prognosticator basically went to zero for me. Given his track record, why are you listening to him? Because he preaches the doom you wish to hear?

http://kunstler.com/mags_y2k.html

By the way, I think things will get VERY ugly in Greece if they default. My issue is with the oft-repeated claims that moderately high oil prices slay economies, and the related people "can't afford" oil at prices above (variously, $20, 50, $70, etc) when the globe overall cruised along with moderate real GDP growth for four-ish years with high oil prices.