[americandream]

Reading round the media, I gather the powers that be in mainland Europe (UK included though we are not in the Euro) are absolutely clueless and in loathing. They do not know what to do next.

How DARE the Greek people vote "NO" - it does not fit in with the EU "leaders" "plans".

AS AD writes, the worlds money men in London will have the final say, over all of us. The world's wealth is now just 0's and 1's on computers these days.

It ain't over yet. The fat ladys of London (& Frankfurt) have not yet risen to sing. Might be a while, they have lost the song sheet !!

Gas

London is the master and they will call the shots. The Germans are just a noisy distraction as they always have been. They cannot hope to even start to matter in this dynamic of Englands bourgeoisie global experiment. The English ruling class call the shots.

The Greeks cannot go it alone.....all London need do is slaughter any of their measures come next London opening.

[phaster]

think the problem of greeks is generally not fully appreciated

basically the greek people are scared $hitless because of the neighborhood they occupy (closer to the middle east and its associated historical political discontent between various peoples and their religions)

so years ago they (the greeks) sought closer political ties to the european economy when the idea of a common currency first came up

unfortunately like kids with a credit card there are consequences when a card is maxed out (so the greek people and their political leaders) are basically wanting the grown ups with jobs and some savings (i.e. germany) to bail out their country

when you look at the NO vote (by the greek people this past weekend), it kinda makes sense in the context I outlined

what happens next is lots of pain all around when the parents (germany) tell the kid (greeks), it a hard world out there and you have to find a way to making a living

there is no scenario I can envision where the so called grown-ups (in germany) are going to let the kids (greeks) slide by

FWIW another way to understand the difference management styles is look at where they live (i.e. the climate)

seasons change so the germans prep for winter (also germany post world war I, experienced hyperinflation and its engrained in the culture to save/work)

the greeks don't have harsh winters, so IMHO they (as a culture) are not conditioned to save

so to answer the question, yes I'd bet greek banks (which create money as credit) will default

[americandream]

Another interpretation might well be that the Greeks were leading quite a contented modest lifestyle off their little plots and bartering systems as they had for eons until John Smith of London Limited came along offering them credit to purchase the Audi from Heinrich Wolfsons Berlin car yard. There was the promise of modernity in all its forms, from Japanese tvs to American holidays in the offing, all at low rates.

[ohanian]

Greeks voted in their referendum

Public debt: 317 billion euros (2014)
GDP: 179 billion euros (2014)
Revenue: 86 billion euros (2014)
Expenditure: 89 billion euros (2014)
Population: 11 million estimated (2014) (7 million 15 - 65 years old)
Debt per working age person (15 - 65 year old) 45,300 euro per person

[ralfy]

"The Greek Crisis - What You're Not Being Told"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=ofNdWTHcIeQ

[ohanian]

http://www.news.com.au/finance/markets/shanghai-stocks-slump-as-some-shares-halt/story-e6frfm30-1227433611826

Shanghai stocks slump as some shares halt

CHINESE shares fell early Wednesday, even as Beijing summons new measures to arrest a three-week sell-off, and the effects of the rout start to ripple into global markets.

The Shanghai Composite is down 6.2 per cent at 3496.99. The smaller Shenzhen Composite fell 4.1 per cent to 1,852.98, while the ChiNext board, composed of small-cap stocks, sank 2 per cent.

In Hong Kong, the Hang Seng Index fell 4.6 per cent and a gauge of Chinese companies listed offshore in the city, known as H-shares, fell 6.4 per cent.

On Wednesday, China’s central bank pledged “various channels” to provide liquidity to the stock market, including to China Securities Finance Corporation, which funds margin lending by brokers. The arm of the securities regulator also will increase purchases in small-cap stocks, the securities regulator said.

In the wake of the stock market slump, at least 1,249 companies have halted trading on mainland Chinese exchanges, accounting for 43 per cent of total listings, Bloomberg News reported.

. . .

Meanwhile, eurozone leaders set a Sunday deadline for Greece to come up with a new set of more stringent measures to avoid defaulting on the European Central Bank and exiting the currency union. While the leaders raised the possibility of some short-term financing to help Athens make a July 20 payment, many of the policy overhauls and budget cuts demanded were overwhelmingly rejected by Greek voters in a referendum last weekend.

. . .

OANDA Australia and Asia Pacific senior trader FX Stephen Innes said with all the global attention on the Greek crisis, China continues to be the elephant in the room.

“Regionally I see China as a much bigger issue than Greece and we’re seeing this play out on currency markets,” he said.

[Newfie]

FWIW, I frequent a cruising board. There are a number of folks who spend considerable time in Greece and/or are there right now.

The prevailing reports are "so far, so good".

FWIW

[americandream]

Farage tells it as it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94UcyJnRcGU

Gas

What are UKIP? The old NF with a respectable face?

[davep]

Farage tells it as it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94UcyJnRcGU

Gas

What are UKIP? The old NF with a respectable face?

Yes-ish. A populist agenda mixed with neoliberal economics (that most of their supporters don't seem to realise).

[americandream]

Farage tells it as it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94UcyJnRcGU

Gas

What are UKIP? The old NF with a respectable face?

Yes-ish. A populist agenda mixed with neoliberal economics (that most of their supporters don't seem to realise).

Thanks.

Once had a friend who was in BNP. We sort of tolerated each others politics as we shared a common love of real ale. I warned him that any politics driven by emotion and sentiment and not the mind was fickle and would fall prey to the filthy lucre, in due course. Wonder whether he remembers my prophetic words.

[Cid_Yama]

Yes, the Thacherites want in, but only on terms that make them equals to Germany. Germany may not want a partner to share their con.

Besides the con is unraveling. Nobody should want in for the final act of a con. They might not think it is, but it's later than they think.

[americandream]

Gas

I have been out of touch with UK politics having not been back in ages. I agree with UKIP on the EU thing though. Membership has been the ruination of the place. Orkney for example has been turned into a tourist trap.

[onlooker]

Interesting the discrepancy between Cid saying the situation in Greece is derived from Germany and their banks while American Dream blames more the London banks. I wonder who is really running the show. Makes no difference as I agree with Cid the financial stability of the West is rapidly deteriorating. How much longer will other countries obey and follow considering this financial bleeding which will only get worse as the whole notion of derivatives and banking practices gets exposed for what it is. Namely one gigantic ponzi scheme, gambling casino, extortion machination and ruse for the benefit of big corporations and banks.

[americandream]

onlooker

A more objective analysis of history would help. Capitalism is a function of history as are all human and animal systems, cannabilism, genocide, cruelty and the lot. Corruption is a function of historys hand in the evolution of organic life, man. The countries engaged in this global scheme will engage the system as the system contemplates UNLESS as group of us with sufficient marbles can persuade our brethren of the error of historys ways and thus to giive it a helping hand with the best tool we have, our brains.

edit: America at Englands behest is presently pressurising the Europeans to relent with the Greeks.

[onlooker]

Yes AD history is certainly following a predicted course. Do you not then AD see capitalism as having run it's course? For it is being revealed for the toxic and corrupt system it really is for the eyes and brains of all to see. Is not the level of resistance now mounting to capitalism a reflection of more people and organizations seeing the pernicious nature of capitalism and seeking to renounce it. Of course we must have some alternative to replace it with.

[americandream]

Yes AD history is certainly following a predicted course. Do you not then AD see capitalism as having run it's course? For it is being revealed for the toxic and corrupt system it really is for the eyes and brains of all to see. Is not the level of resistance now mounting to capitalism a reflection of more people and organizations seeing the pernicious nature of capitalism and seeking to renounce it. Of course we must have some alternative to replace it with.

No. There isnt sufficient consciousness to dispassionately analyse history and fine tune its flaws. If you look in this forum for example, sentiment runs rife with most opinion passionately anti modernity, anti the bankers, anti corporations, anti everything but how we live, day in day out, without even thinking about how we got here.

Unless a sufficiently dispassionate case can be made for why we need a new set of living rules that takes account for what evolution has made of us, very skilful monkeys, and use that in a sustainable and circular way which means the end of competition.....competition and our tooling skills are a deadly mix.....I wouldnt even bother trying.

If you want to make a difference, thats your remit....the challenge that history has thrown down at us, the only species with the capacity to understand its workings.

edit. In fact its reached the ludicrous point where you have the likes of McPherson building almost a cult like following with an anti modernity death and guilt laden cult.....as if we deliberately set out to be skilful monkeys. That is just crazy but nonsense like that is just another fad for the serially bored who throng modern capitalism.

[onlooker]

Okay, I am understanding AD, thanks for that explanation. So yes we must learn why we have reached this point. That is essential to divert and transition to a system envisaged by Marx. We must understand why Communism is a system that is viable and sustainable over the long course and not Capitalism. Hopefully, fate will allow us this opportunity or second chance. Right now capitalism is dismaying many people around the world so that they are ripe for wanting some other type of system. Look at South America and what is happening there. I do believe capitalism captivated humans because it appeals to our impulsive and emotional nature. That is why rejecting it entailed as you stated a dispassionate and knowledgeable state of mind, something that I think most throughout history have lacked.

[americandream]

Okay, I am understanding AD, thanks for that explanation. So yes we must learn why we have reached this point. That is essential to divert and transition to a system envisaged by Marx. We must understand why Communism is a system that is viable and sustainable over the long course and not Capitalism. Hopefully, fate will allow us this opportunity or second chance. Right now capitalism is dismaying many people around the world so that they are ripe for wanting some other type of system. Look at South America and what is happening there. I do believe capitalism captivated humans because it appeals to our impulsive and emotional nature. That is why rejecting it entailed as you stated a dispassionate and knowledgeable state of mind, something that I think most throughout history have lacked.

Capitalism appeals to many because it is the best we have had thus far. You have only to look as the convoluted voodoo that Islam is to see what I mean. Capitalism combines such things as due process, social democracy and the tools we build to create a human system that is quite good on many levels. But it also has many flaws, the most disturbing being its core function, the infinite accumulation of profit through activities that rest on the creation of a never ending spiral of wants, wants that personalise toxic activities such as driving, throw away consumerism and short term obsolescence across billions of people.....all functions essential for regular accumulation and which can never be eliminated despite all the fine pronouncements which Graeme periodically posts.

So modernity is good as it makes our mortal spell on earth less fraught. It fails when used as it is in the existing system.

If we can start talking about these facts in a less doom laden but realistic manner, I think we will find people very receptive out there. That is the direction I am headed in using the fruits of my trading to start up education programs in all the cultural centres of this globe.

I am not going to be selling love, tribal dances by the moonlight chanting mother earth lullabies, I am simply going to educate people into seeing modernity with a more constructive understanding of its uses and misuses.

And the right labels are important. We cannot hope to change the system just by attacking bankers. All of capital has to go to be replaced by communal modernity.