[onlooker]

I wish you all the best AD. This idea of yours is laudable and so essential to educate the masses to alternatives. It would be great if you could update me how it is going. Also, if I can assist in any way, I would be more then glad too. Your right if all one can disseminate to others is doom that will repel them. People need some hope.

[americandream]

I wish you all the best AD. This idea of yours is laudable and so essential to educate the masses to alternatives. It would be great if you could update me how it is going. Also, if I can assist in any way, I would be more then glad too. Your right if all one can disseminate to others is doom that will repel them. People need some hope.

Will do onlooker. In the meantime, contemplate these issues and build on them with your own insights. Once you untap logic the momentum builds and the more we can get talking these issues at this depth, the more expansive will our knowledge base become. Its a daunting task as we have to also construct a knowledge base that reaches into feudal empires such as Islam and of course, reactionary forces such as Christianity and all the worlds religions. Religion has been the bane of mankind as it is high subjectivity cloaked in mystique. hence my impatience with those on this site peddling mysticism. But I have had a few with whom my reasoning has resonated so its coming along positively.

[Sixstrings]

Germany "bows to worldwide pressure" to cut Greece some slack and do some debt forgiveness:

Greek deal in sight as Germany bows to huge global pressure for debt relief
Angela Merkel faces a defining moment in her political career as chorus of voices push for Greek debt relief

Germany is at last bowing to pressure as a chorus of countries and key institutions demand debt relief for Greece, a shift that could break the five-month stalemate and avert a potentially disastrous rupture of monetary union at this Sunday’s last-ditch summit.

In a highly significant move, the European Council has called on both sides to make major concessions, insisting that the creditor powers must do their part as the radical Syriza government puts forward a new raft of proposals on economic reforms before a deadline expires tonight.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11730086/Greek-deal-in-sight-as-Germany-bows-to-huge-global-pressure-for-debt-relief.html

So my prediction turned out correct.. I was thinking at the start of this, that the IMF / federal reserve would wind up bailing greece out (if push comes to shove).

Because the fact is -- there's just no way the US is going to let Greece go out of the EU, out of nato and closer to Russia. That's geopolitical truth #1. So anything you think is gonna happen, start from the point of that truth, that Greece cannot go to Russia and that won't happen.

So what wound up happening? US federal reserve / the IMF didn't have to bail Greece out -- the US put pressure on Merkel to cut it out and wrap this thing up, instead.

[onlooker]

Religion has been the bane of mankind as it is high subjectivity cloaked in mystique

So true AD. What is more it thwarted and postponed the advent of the Enlightenment period which at least bought mankind as your phrased it, into "modernity". Empirical and objective-fact based methods and ways of thinking became widely practiced as highlighted by Science becoming paramount. I too have little patience for Religion. Having said that I do believe in a Creator and so consider myself Spiritual in a personal sense. Hey but I think maybe we should start a new thread with this EDUCATING in mind cause the Mods will be flustered the way we have diverted this topic.

[americandream]

six

This has more to do with maintaining momentum with capital than fighting windmills such as Russia.

[onlooker]

AD, I will start the new topic on this forum. The title will be "Alternatives to Capitalism". Hope to see your there. Stay well. OL

[americandream]

Religion has been the bane of mankind as it is high subjectivity cloaked in mystique

So true AD. What is more it thwarted and postponed the advent of the Enlightenment period which at least bought mankind as your phrased it, into "modernity". Empirical and objective-fact based methods and ways of thinking became widely practiced as highlighted by Science becoming paramount. I too have little patience for Religion. Having said that I do believe in a Creator and so consider myself Spiritual in a personal sense. Hey but I think maybe we should start a new thread with this EDUCATING in mind cause the Mods will be flustered the way we have diverted this topic.

The Creator as you put it is there, right in front of you. It is the material domain. Of course, quantum physics will help us in understanding the convergence of material, non material functions in the grand cosmic picture but that knowledge can ONLY be built on extending REASON. Development of the one is essential for knowledge of the other.

If you want to start a thread by all means. I will contribute as best I can and as time permits.

[SeaGypsy]

I'm enjoying your writing more lately too AD.

I don't at all peddle mysticism, but self knowledge, which comes about by reflection on the human condition in all it's glories & fallings, truth & folly. Whether someone personally believes there are or is some kind of supernatural should not be an alienating factor among scientists, I'm not aware of such condradictory positions NOT being very common in laboratory with similar consequence to what sport one might play or team you follow. The problem with religion as it has become to be known is it is empirical & monolithic & removed from the personal & practical.

The problem with capitalism is overrun is inevitable, on a grand scale it cannot work sustainably no matter what parameters are set. It is a system where we are replacing everything on the planet with humans, crunching bytes & calling it good because 4 billion people who didn't exist 35 years ago have 125 cc scooters on hire purchase & enough rice to keep on improving, devouring, ....

[Sixstrings]

six

This has more to do with maintaining momentum with capital than fighting windmills such as Russia.

Probably BOTH.

(the thing didn't get far enough for me to see if my hunch was right, but I just think that if Greece went into real default and started printing drachmas and talking to Putin.. then at the end of the day you'd have seen the US federal reserve / US-controlled IMF step in even without the EU / Germany.)

And I'd wonder about China, too.. AD, do you think the stock market crash in China was due to Greek contagion?

It's like whack-a-mole, if Greece tanks China then nobody can let China tank so everyone would have to bail out Greece no matter what, and perhaps that's what you're talking about when you say "momentum of capitalism."

[Tanada]

Religion has been the bane of mankind as it is high subjectivity cloaked in mystique

So true AD. What is more it thwarted and postponed the advent of the Enlightenment period which at least bought mankind as your phrased it, into "modernity". Empirical and objective-fact based methods and ways of thinking became widely practiced as highlighted by Science becoming paramount. I too have little patience for Religion. Having said that I do believe in a Creator and so consider myself Spiritual in a personal sense. Hey but I think maybe we should start a new thread with this EDUCATING in mind cause the Mods will be flustered the way we have diverted this topic.

The religion founded by Karl Marx has been particularly grievous to the species.

[Sixstrings]

The religion founded by Karl Marx has been particularly grievous to the species.

And to the human spirit, I agree with that. There's just two different ways to run a place, either top down oppressive control and central planning or you can have a dynamic market and freedom and then a balance with cooperative action.

This was true in the ancient world as well.. it was the difference between a backward feudal place, and then a rich gleaming merchant republic like Venice or later, Holland. The little island of Venice started out with nothing but marsh land and making salt from evaporating sea water. Otherwise, they had NOTHIN.

Yet.. they became the richest power of the their day.. or one of the richest.

You can see the same thing today, in a place like South Korea.. it's in the G8, a top economy in the world, yet it's just half a small peninsula without much in the way of resources. And then, Hong Kong. What's the difference, between a Hong Kong and a communist mainland? Between a gleaming South Korea, and a hellish starving communist dystopia North Korea? The former have the most freedom, therefore richer overall and more productive. And happier people.

[onlooker]

I invite both you Tanada and Six to the thread I started in the Geo-politics forum about Alternatives to Capitalism. We can debate there the particulars of Economic systems and Social Systems. American dream is very well versed in Marxist ideology and will be a contributor. I have come to be also an adherent. See the problem is that we have all been so lured and enticed with the productivity of Capitalism and its goodies. Is this not what has contributed to all the environmental problems we now have. Soviet Union, N. Korea and China have warped and distorted what Marx detailed. Does that negate the rationality and merits of his theories? I think not. So by all means go to that thread and we can discuss more in depth this topic.

[Tanada]

I invite both you Tanada and Six to the thread I started in the Geo-politics forum about Alternatives to Capitalism. We can debate there the particulars of Economic systems and Social Systems. American dream is very well versed in Marxist ideology and will be a contributor. I have come to be also an adherent. See the problem is that we have all been so lured and enticed with the productivity of Capitalism and its goodies. Is this not what has contributed to all the environmental problems we now have. Soviet Union, N. Korea and China have warped and distorted what Marx detailed. Does that negate the rationality and merits of his theories? I think not. So by all means go to that thread and we can discuss more in depth this topic.

Sorry onlooker, there are only so many hours in the day and I gave up trying to convince people their particular religion was faulty years ago.

[onlooker]

Fair enough Tanada. I am a late arrival to this site. So I realize some posts I make are rehashing some prior posts and topics. Yes convincing others can be a tiring business. Look forward to your posts in the environmental forum.

[Withnail]

You can see the same thing today, in a place like South Korea.. it's in the G8, a top economy in the world,

The G8 no longer exists and when it did exist South Korea was not a member. Nor has it ever been a member of the G7.

[onlooker]

It does not look good the 11th hour has come and Grexit appears inevitable. Also, from reading this article it looks like EU wishes to punish Greece for it's defiance and to send out a message loud and clear that will scare other members from contemplating an exit. Wow, this looks like the beginning of the unraveling of the European Union. Link:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/ ... pable.html

[americandream]

It does not look good the 11th hour has come and Grexit appears inevitable. Also, from reading this article it looks like EU wishes to punish Greece for it's defiance and to send out a message loud and clear that will scare other members from contemplating an exit. Wow, this looks like the beginning of the unraveling of the European Union. Link:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/ ... pable.html

The Germans manufacture widgets. The English run the banks. Without banks, the factories would simply stall. Something will be cobbled together.

[onlooker]

I do not know AD, it seems the rule of money may be finally reaching it's conclusion. Money in relation to real assets and resources. As the whole debt based system appears wobbly and flimsy, more and more countries, companies and people will be looking at real wealth, meaning what resources do any particular entities really have. I speak also about the balance sheet of countries and companies in respect to the ratio of income to debt. That is in fact the measurement being used for countries and more and more on the micro-economic level. The illusion of monetary wealth is being exposed as just that. The stock markets are seen as the corrupt gambling dens that they are. I understand AD your fixation on the logical and gradual procession of the process but I see the process occurring faster then I think you do. Greece is about to be a watershed moment that could definitely be the catalyst for more seismic tremors in the EU, London and the US.

[Pops]

How many years has this been in the works? I really haven't been following all that closely but it seems to me anyone still exposed understands the risk. Different from house flippers in the US a decade ago or the newly minted stock market investors in China for that matter.