[americandream]

It was answered.

I tend to write succinctly and in using the term organic was contemplating all the ordinary forms of events that would render conscientisation organic. As you will note, I qualified that with the comment that with time being at a premium, we would have to orchestrate conscientisation. We cannot wait for a terminal crisis to play a role (only a terminal crisis will galvanise organic forces and by then it will be too late).

This exercise is going to be very costly and will require commitment and an ability to say a lot in a few accessible sound bits.

[Timo]

Ibon, you are correct that humanity will not/cannot change/evolve without facing the consequences of some shock to our BAU system of living. I would also suggest that, even though humans do have a (supposedly) superior intellect to other life forms on this planet, this same rule also applies to all of life, everywhere. In this sense, evolution is a reactionary defense against a shock that threatens a species' current evolutionary status within its environment. When the environment changes, so too must life within that environment.

Humanity can't/won't change because we firmly believe that our superior intellect displaces us from the natural order of the world. The laws of nature do not apply to us. Therefore, we are perfectly free to morph those laws to suit our own short-term needs. In so doing, this practice, in reality, is driving our evolution in and of itself, but not is such a good way. You mentioned "culture" as a key component of our evolutionary process. Well, i agree 100%. Culture is seperate from our biology, but our culture can also shape our biology in evolutionary ways that affect our physical abilities to react to threats to our environment. Cultural evolution can also affect our intellect, meaning that we may have advanced the evolution of our intellect several steps ahead of our physical abilities to respond to shocks to our environment. To be painfully cliche about it, we've become too smart for our own good. We've created an environment (ecological, cultural, economic, take your pick) that has become a defining factor of our evolutionary state. We exist in the way w do preceisely because we've evolved uniquely to live in this current state of being. We cannot live (collectively) in any other state. We've evolved past our abilities to adapt to altered systems and environments. The next step in our evolution can/will only be caused by a major shock to our environment. Our environment can, again, be whatever you like, beit ecological, economic, cultural, whatever. Regardless, we will not evolve until that shock occurs because we do not have to evolve. Evolution is a reactionary process. It is biologically impossible to anticipate future shocks to our environment, and adapt/evolve accordingly. Unfortunately for us, our intellect is baked in to who we are, as a species. We want to believe we can anticipate future shocks, and make plans to address those shocks, but doing that only kicks the evolutionary can further down the road, and we continue to fall further and further behind where we really need to be, as a species.

[americandream]

Timo

The collapse of capitalism will be marked by the collapse of life friendly climate. Think about that and the function of the organic forces you contemplate.

[Ibon]

It was answered.

I tend to write succinctly and in using the term organic was contemplating all the ordinary forms of events that would render conscientisation organic. As you will note, I qualified that with the comment that with time being at a premium, we would have to orchestrate conscientisation. We cannot wait for a terminal crisis to play a role (only a terminal crisis will galvanise organic forces and by then it will be too late).

This exercise is going to be very costly and will require commitment and an ability to say a lot in a few accessible sound bits.

I am going to try to pin you down here a bit. I get your point and you readily acknowledge that the exercise will first be costly and secondly that we cannot wait for a terminal crisis.

If it is not consequences that will act as a catalyst what do you see as the "agent" that will galvanize the current collective into abandoning wasteful consumption and adopting a more conscious set of principals? You are stating quite clearly, where many agree with you, that it will be costly and that time is of the essence. So please outline to us how this required and costly consciousness raising exercise will take priority and precedence over BAU without consequences acting as a catalyst.

We are kind of late in the game to be making bold statements without a game plan. I admit that we are currently without a game plan and are far too resilient still to make any course changes. For that reason all that I can come up with is the catalyst of the consequence of human overshoot. I also pointed out that threats alone (boy who cried wolf) wont cut it after too many false alarms..

So AD, you are being challenged to move from making a simple bold statement that we need to raise scientifically the collective consciousness of humanity and actually providing some mechanism in how you see this happening.

My position that it is the catalyst of the consequences of human overshoot that will finally move humanity remains unchallenged.

[Pops]

One digests the facts and makes and informed choice based on reason.

No they don't, LoL.

Or rather they decide based on emotion (subconscious influences) then rationalize the decision. Those tendencies aren't necessarily neurotic, or aberrant, merely "feelings" that are beyond the reach of reason.

I think people act for the most part on gut instinct, knee jerk reaction based on past experience, probably some large part genetic inclination, the influence of their herd and especially their chosen heroes/gurus/icons/authorities. I used to think folks were more rational, I used to think I was. But watching and joining in the many debates here over the years that repeat with no end, regardless of whatever killer argument presented and with none of the parties ever changing horses, leads me to the belief that belief trumps logic every time.

But I'm pretty sure I won't make you believe that, if you don't already believe it, LoL.

[Ibon]

Regarding religions the dogmatic institutions that surround most major religions and the devices of hocus pocus mysticism is something truly distinct from holding your mother earth as something sacred. This reverence is a key component to consciousness raising in my opinion and you seem to be challenged in separating this sense of reverence and sense of the sacred from what you see as religious hocus pocus mysticism. In that sense I go back to my previous comment to you that you need to spend more time in the woods from where this sense of the sacred can be found and less time contemplating the purely intellectual components of this process toward consciousness raising

Many people who have immersed themselves deep into nature, whether native or scientists, are acutely aware of this sense of the sacred. To not use this as one of the tools to develop a pathway out of material consumerism towards a more reasoned consciousness is discarding one of the most valuable tools in the shed toward this process IMHO.

AD, you owe me a comment on this point as well. Are you able to distinguish between hocus pocus mysticism and a real and poignant sense of the sacred toward our mother earth? And how this is a valuable tool as part of this consciousness raising? You seem to be taking the position that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater in your conclusions that spirituality in all its manifestations is a "primitive" stage of consciousness that we need to move beyond. And that a sense of the sacred has no place for a rationally evolved consciousness moving forward. If this is your belief let me know and then afterwards you will need to explain to me how this is consistent with your sense of urgency in raising the masses of humanity in their consciousness..... remembering that probably 4/5ths of humanity, including most securlar people who have renounced their traditional faiths, do very much believe in a sense of the sacred toward life and existence even though they state this while living actual lives that are trashing the planet. This is a serious issue to resolve in your rational world view.

[americandream]

Ibon

Conscientising can only occur organically....either naturally or through contrived organics such as comprehensive and targeted education in all the globes cultural zones, from the Anglo Saxon zone to the Oceania Polynesian zone. In other words seeding every zone with the same clear and succinct message, tweaked for modernity in capitalist zones, feudally or tribally transmitted in those zones.

The core message must clearly convince that drenching the planet in a global toxic modernity will rapidly alter atmospheric chemistry thus triggering a trend shift via life unfriendly fractility. We can demonstrate fractility in action through data spreads and of course add a timing element to the matter by demonstrating the irreversibility of the trend fractal threshold.

I have a mountain of work to do in this area but anticipate getting this together in a yea from when I get underwayr. There will be no concessions made to religion or mysticism. An appreciation of our planet must come from a rational understanding of our need for it to be managed within defined natural boundaries. Of course, the absurdity of geo engineering infinity will play a role in outlining the emergency we face.

[americandream]

@ pops

I disagree. People are a lot more rational than we give them credit for, where it matters, bar a few malfunctioning persons. However,(as an example), the (economic) backdrop against which the rational function is largely irrational and thus we get the best efforts of many bearing bitter fruit (as we did in the housing crisis).

A good example is the other thread on the flag. For quite rational reasons, it was decided to tolerate certain icons of the South in the interests of national reconciliation and reconstruction and most act in that spirit. However a few of the most unstable but vocal in our midst have rendered what could have been a sensible solution into a prolonged leakage out of civil equilibrium.

[Timo]

Ibon

Conscientising can only occur organically....either naturally or through contrived organics such as comprehensive and targeted education in all the globes cultural zones, from the Anglo Saxon zone to the Oceania Polynesian zone. In other words seeding every zone with the same clear and succinct message, tweaked for modernity in capitalist zones, feudally or tribally transmitted in those zones.

The core message must clearly convince that drenching the planet in a global toxic modernity will rapidly alter atmospheric chemistry thus triggering a trend shift via life unfriendly fractility. We can demonstrate fractility in action through data spreads and of course add a timing element to the matter by demonstrating the irreversibility of the trend fractal threshold.

AD, pardon my intrusion into your discussion with Ibon, but while I tend to agree with your premise of what could/should be done to alter our global conscience, what you advocate here are just words. Telling people of the errors of their ways, to whatever culture or region of the planet you choose, isn't going to change anything. Most people on this planet are already fully aware that global warming is very real. Has that changed anything? The powers that be across the globe are educated enough to understand the relationships between consumption and AGW, yet profit still trumps common sense. Nothing, short of a catastrophjic physical shock, will ever generate the kind of motivation people need to fundamentally change their ways, and adapt/evolve towards a lower, harmonious level of living. Preaching the virtues of change, whatever that change might be, will require hundreds, if not thousands of years to take root in the cultures across the planet. That is time we do not have. We'll all be dead by the time the collective decides it's time to do things differently. We need a plan for immediate implementation that can produce results within a couple of decades. Any ideas?

[Pops]

I'm gonna say that many of the participants in the housing bubble were logically aware that something was afoot but emotions overrode their logic. Not everyone of course, lots of folks, all up and down the line made good decisions, based on historic norms. But of the folks who knew themselves to be outliers from the historic trend, I'm gonna say many simply went with the herd.
From the farm worker who got a million dollar mortgage to the traders who actually believed they were buying up AAA rated bond on loans all but designed to fail.

But I'm not surprised you disagree, LoL, I predicted it!
;^)

[americandream]

I'm gonna say that many of the participants in the housing bubble were logically aware that something was afoot but emotions overrode their logic. Not everyone of course, lots of folks, all up and down the line made good decisions, based on historic norms. But of the folks who knew themselves to be outliers from the historic trend, I'm gonna say many simply went with the herd.
From the farm worker who got a million dollar mortgage to the traders who actually believed they were buying up AAA rated bond on loans all but designed to fail.

But I'm not surprised you disagree, LoL, I predicted it!
;^)

I think its hardly a good argument to suggest that folks walked into banks blithly unaware of their paying ability. However, the system had built up expectations of a never ending housing market and lets not forget, bubbles are a function of capitalism from the tulip bubble of the 17th century right down to our current personal spending bubble.

[americandream]

Timo

As I have repeatedly said, raising consciousness is a multilayered process from understanding the nature of material dialecticism to its tendencies which in capitalism includes destabilising climate chemistry. However, at the core of the exercise is the cultivation of detachment so as an uncluttered picture might seep in. This is a numbers game and the intent is to completely replace the current shamanistic Ludditism with true revolutionary vision and then let media such as the net amplify the spread. Above all, the message must reach into all cultures in equal measure thus blocking capitalisms spread.

[Pops]

I think its hardly a good argument to suggest that folks walked into banks blithly unaware of their paying ability.

no, no, my argument is they chose to believe in spite of what they knew logically. From the lowliest "no qualifying" ARM borrower to the guy at AIG insuring all those trances and every broker, appraiser and loan officer in between.

But yeah, any time there is investment there will be over investment, the problem we are encountering, which onlooker didn't mention but which is the problem with central banking at the moment, is the lever pullers think they have complete control and can avoid the deflation necessary to purge the nastiness of over investment without their constituents, the investors, getting hurt.

In my opinion.

[Timo]

AD, you seem to be the communal punching bag on this thread of late. Sorry about that. I don't get the sense that anyone fundamentally disagrees with what you're implying, but then again, i'm not Pops. My point is all about the time necessary to accomplish what we both agree is ncessary to change course. Given unlimited time, sure, common sense and reason might end up winning the day. On the other hand, look at the history of Christianity. Over the past 2000+ years, sure, it has affected billions of peoples lives, and provided guidance to every Christian according to the dictates of some deity. However, how many Christian denominations are there today? How many new denominations spring up every day, just to get the tax breaks on property and income? How many denominations disagree with the others regarding what the Word of God actually is? Ditto for the factions of Islam. Over the thousands of years since the creation of organized religion, there is still zero global concensus about anything. We still have wars over seemingly petty ideologies, killing tens of thousands of people every year. People will believe what they want to believe. End of story. Spending any amount of time trying to convince everyone on earth that the world is going to end if they don't change their ways will have the same effect as telling them they're going to Hell if they don't change their ways. There is no practical difference. Actually, faith has more power over peoples emotions than science.

Go Pope Francis!

[Pops]

I disagree with AD on the idea people are rational.

The part of the whole premise I disagree with in the thread, and over many threads along the same line is:

"Capitalism is bad and the root of all evil and all the bad capitalists should stop being so greedy and if everyone else would just put all their worldly possessions in the recycling toter and share out their bank accounts we'd never want another thing we would all get along and the world would be a wonderful green temple of Gaia...

...

you first."

[americandream]

I disagree with AD on the idea people are rational.

The part of the whole premise I disagree with in the thread, and over many threads along the same line is:

"Capitalism is bad and the root of all evil and all the bad capitalists should stop being so greedy and if everyone else would just put all their worldly possessions in the recycling toter and share out their bank accounts we'd never want another thing we would all get along and the world would be a wonderful green temple of Gaia...

...

you first."

@ pops

That possibly as wrong as you can get. Capitalism as with all systems is a function of objective forces so in essence, its something of a conundrum as far as normative notions go.

However, capitalism being an exponential globalism, has certain tendencies of which one of them is climate related.

Capitalists re not bad.....well not the majority of those functioning at reasonable cognitive levels.....however they are strongly invested in the system to the degree that their time constraints will always be dividend cheque to dividend cheque. Capitalists are acutely confined to the timescale contemplated by accumulation, marooned in that dimension in fact.Capitalisms meritocracy also sees many of the lumpenproletariat in a similar predicament but the absence of the accumulative function makes the working class (not peasants who are subsistence timelined) more amenable to logic.

When critiquing capital, it is useful to set aside all subjective value judgement.

[americandream]

AD, you seem to be the communal punching bag on this thread of late. Sorry about that. I don't get the sense that anyone fundamentally disagrees with what you're implying, but then again, i'm not Pops. My point is all about the time necessary to accomplish what we both agree is ncessary to change course. Given unlimited time, sure, common sense and reason might end up winning the day. On the other hand, look at the history of Christianity. Over the past 2000+ years, sure, it has affected billions of peoples lives, and provided guidance to every Christian according to the dictates of some deity. However, how many Christian denominations are there today? How many new denominations spring up every day, just to get the tax breaks on property and income? How many denominations disagree with the others regarding what the Word of God actually is? Ditto for the factions of Islam. Over the thousands of years since the creation of organized religion, there is still zero global concensus about anything. We still have wars over seemingly petty ideologies, killing tens of thousands of people every year. People will believe what they want to believe. End of story. Spending any amount of time trying to convince everyone on earth that the world is going to end if they don't change their ways will have the same effect as telling them they're going to Hell if they don't change their ways. There is no practical difference. Actually, faith has more power over peoples emotions than science.

Go Pope Francis!

Faith I am afraid will come too late in the game. To some extent we are seeking to preempt capitalism in a game akin to chess.

[americandream]

I think its hardly a good argument to suggest that folks walked into banks blithly unaware of their paying ability.

no, no, my argument is they chose to believe in spite of what they knew logically. From the lowliest "no qualifying" ARM borrower to the guy at AIG insuring all those trances and every broker, appraiser and loan officer in between.

But yeah, any time there is investment there will be over investment, the problem we are encountering, which onlooker didn't mention but which is the problem with central banking at the moment, is the lever pullers think they have complete control and can avoid the deflation necessary to purge the nastiness of over investment without their constituents, the investors, getting hurt.

In my opinion.

Sorry for the replies guys....sort of trying to take a brain break from yesterday so not really all that compos mentes.

You are putting that cart before the horse Pops in attributing dialectic reason to the masses at this stage pops. Yes they are rational but to the extent of micro personals such as retirement, pensions, the kids education....but on the macro scale of systems, conditioned to operate at a subliminally blinkered rate.

[Pops]

Capitalism as with all systems is a function of objective forces so in essence, its something of a conundrum as far as normative notions go.

LoL, whatever that means I think it misses my point.

We are all capitalists as long as we choose to continue operating in the system.
I don't see anyone in this thread volunteering their way out.
Playing the keyboard as Rome burns, as it were.
So stop accumulating already