onlooker wrote:In fact Ibon you are in essence saying that our relation with Mother Earth and each other has been unethical and we needed the stick to remind us of this. So what we have had for 200 years or so is a view of Earth for what we can extract from it and what it can give us and in a way that is how we have viewed each other. We have used Earth as we have used any of the ephemeral objects we have created. To be used and discarded. I think most would agree that the limits to growth and the OP will reign in humanity. What to me is the more salient point is how to never again repeat our mistakes. Determining ethics is about determining what things we value in this life and what things not so much and acting accordingly . So consequences will be the catalyst for great changes but we must understand and be conscious of our ethical choices in order to learn why this all occurred. Why we decided to so use and abuse the Earth, why we created such an unequal and unjust worldwide political and economic system. Or else lessons will not be learned and mistakes may be repeated in the future. If we are given a second chance, I hope we will be humbled and brought to our knees so that we can collectively value Earth, each other and ourselves enough to never go down this same path again.
americandream wrote:SeaGypsy wrote:So AD, given that 'landed wealth' is the primary basis of the rentier economy no developed country is going to willingly forgo: a revolutionary position on land holding is mandatory. The breathing space of direct control of collective surplus through rebellion against the land control system is the only way to begin to establish a truly collective economy. A side door may be for wealthy benefactors to freely hand full control to collectives, as has happened occasionally. However the lack of such a benefactor should not be an insurmountable object to establishment of collectives in the way it is.
A legal pro-forma needs to be designed to support establishment of alternative tenure. This needs to be done at the top brass legal level, with challenges ready for every level of the legal system, which should buy at least a decade of time for the emergent claimant collective to become established & to spawn further such land rebellion communities.
would you agree?
Absolutely SG. There are no fixed approaches to the nuts and bolts as long as we have grasped the core issues as you eloquently summarised. The next step would be to let momentum build up, tackling the legals for tenure is dead on, and of course, the structures as Ibon contemplates. For my contribution, I will kick off at my end and probably borrow ideas from others. I think if as many of us can kick the ball off so to speak in our corner of the globe, its a start..like you said, its getting the bull out of peoples heads.
onlooker wrote:This is what I like actually the most about communal Socialism or Marxism. The idea of doing away with the notion of money in terms of the ability to be hoarded or to be lacking. Ideally, people would not be paid in any currency rather they will be compensated for productive contributions to society. Meaning all the needs will work in this way, people as long as they are productive members of society will have their material basic needs taken care of. The whole idea of greed for material tangible possessions will become obsolete. Communal activities will allow people to engage in leisurely pursuits which they may fancy. So possessions will not exist except for some personal inexpensive objects which people need on a daily basis ie. think hygienic stuff, medicine etc. I know you guys will probably see this as pie in the sky rhetoric but I believe the great upheaval to come will provide mankind a chance to do over certain aspects of society and one that must be changed is the existence of money and possessions. In a future society most things will not be possessed but rather shared by all and utilized by all.
onlooker wrote:Good post Radon, but I have a little problem with your observation that money or in this case price is delivering a complete picture. ..
onlooker wrote:This is what I like actually the most about communal Socialism or Marxism.
Ibon wrote:We are not a flawed species. We are an ignorant species regarding self regulating with abundance. We are about to be given the opportunity of wisdom. This set of circumstances never happened before.
ennui2 wrote:Ibon wrote:We are not a flawed species. We are an ignorant species regarding self regulating with abundance. We are about to be given the opportunity of wisdom. This set of circumstances never happened before.
It has, regionally, hence Tainter Collapse of Complex Societies.I mean, in a real malthusian event, I suspect that there will never be a truly global and universal narrative about what the root cause was, and the moral of overshoot will just be one among several more comforting stories, many with a shocking amount of religious fantasies sprouted up about it.
Now, as Greece (and the rest of Europe) catches its breath, Mason has returned to Britain to promote his new book, “PostCapitalism: A Guide to Our Future“. It’s not a work of reportage, but of wide-ranging historical and economic analysis that is inspired by Marx’s analysis of capitalist social relations, but also goes some way beyond it (in ways, he acknowledges, that might not find favour with some of his friends on the far left). The book is both an analysis of the crisis of what Mason calls “neoliberalism”—his shorthand for the version of highly financialised capitalism that has operated in most of the developed world for the past 30 years—and an attempt to imagine what might replace it.
evilgenius wrote:You have to understand, it isn't money itself which is so bad, but the love of money that is the root of all evil. Money is just a tool.
Ibon wrote:evilgenius wrote:You have to understand, it isn't money itself which is so bad, but the love of money that is the root of all evil. Money is just a tool.
Poverty is a prison. Too much money is a prison. A little bit of money as an enabler of experience and to free one from being a wage slave is the happy medium. The problem is most folks fly right by that happy medium and go right into being imprisoned, forsaking the love of freedom for the love of money itself.
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