[vtsnowedin]

I wouldn't get uptight about someone buying ice with an EBT card. Their power might be out or buying it buy the bag might be cheaper than making it in the kitchen freezer. What frosts me is someone buying lobsters or Delmonico steaks with one in front of me while I'm budgeted to hamburger keeping all the bills and taxes paid.

[Newfie]

To be fair to Cog I suspect few of us, if any, have not had a Cog moment at some point in time.

Sure you may be able to rationalize around th injury. But at times that takes a LOT of work.

[Sixstrings]

I actually thought it was his best post, like, ever...

I agree, that was a good post.

To be fair to Cog I suspect few of us, if any, have not had a Cog moment at some point in time.

Sure you may be able to rationalize around th injury. But at times that takes a LOT of work.

Yes, Cog is the Everyman. I think he should run for political office and channel our frustrations.

(I'm only half joking, if Cog got on a campaign trail and started telling that ice story, he'd go places)

Okay seriously, just speaking for myself, OF COURSE I have "Cog moments" like that ice story, don't we all?

When you're standing in this huge line at the checkout, and everything is screwed up and the cashier can't figure out how to work the register, or "someone is buying ice with a food stamp card," or someone decides to write a check and that's a huge ordeal. Or, quite often like at CVS or Walgreens, it's always -- always -- some oldster disputing a coupon issue on peanut brittle or buy one get one free metamucil. I swear it never fails, whenever I'm at CVS, the line is ALWAYS held up by coupon disputes.

I honestly VERY MUCH like automated checkouts at Walmart. It's heaven! So efficient. No lines. No problems. Just in and out. And then I get on peakoil.com after, and complain about all the jobs going away due to automation.

The difference between me, and Cog?

I may have been SO TEMPTED and had it running through my head a million times before, to just "buy that person their ice so I can get out of this store" -- but I've NEVER, ever actually said that.

But I guess Cog is more alpha male than me. If he wasn't overtly rude nor mean to the clerk, then a little assertiveness is okay and not the end of the world (actually that does sound rude to that customer ahead of him, this is breaking protocol, even if somebody is a millionaire you can't just start bribing people to skip the line that's not etiquette).

That kind of thing is breaking decorum, if a line is too long then you're supposed to get a slightly frustrated look on your face, sigh a bit and then just walk out and go somewhere else.

I've worked retail / with the public before, years ago, so I know Cog's type of customer. The clerk did the exact right thing, just open another register and check Cog out and get him on his way. (or, standard clerk etiquette / "doing a good job" would be to ACKNOWLEDGE the frustrated customer, in a friendly way, so that they know they aren't forgotten about and that diffuses it too).

So that clerk Cog encountered still did a good job, the "land whale" was holding the line up, the clerk opened another register and that solved it.

Bottom line on it all -- maybe raise the minimum wage to $15 and get even BETTER store employees, and maybe also that woman wouldn't be on food stamps and holding up lines in the first place, maybe she'd be more like Cog with a busy life and a living wage job to get to.

[Sixstrings]

I wouldn't get uptight about someone buying ice with an EBT card. Their power might be out or buying it buy the bag might be cheaper than making it in the kitchen freezer. What frosts me is someone buying lobsters or Delmonico steaks with one in front of me while I'm budgeted to hamburger keeping all the bills and taxes paid.

No, Cog is probably right, she's probably "using the system" and has a million kids and everybody in the house has a check coming in from the government.

BUT -- overall -- I never judge people using food stamps, #1 it's not my business.

#2, I don't feel a need to "feel superior" over those lower down the ladder than I am. Complaining about others' foodstamps is classic -- vts, if you look at the totality of that person's life, that's buying the good steaks and lobster with their foodstamps, you probably would not trade yours for theirs.

Incidentally, I know we all think there's so much "food stamp fraud," but actually there are pretty stringent income restrictions for it. So I'm not sure if maybe people just lie or say they make less than they do and the gov never checks on it or what, but if they're honest about it then they're genuinely poor people if they qualify for food stamps.

If you want a solution to this issue, that would hooking state govs up with the federal gov to just check tax records to verify income.

Or, raise the minimum wage a significant amount, get the real economy moving and jobs growing, that have a living wage and then the USA wouldn't need foodstamps.

Another general issue is just economy of scale -- when people have kids, they get MORE foodstamps. So if someone has like five kids then that's a lot of stamps, and they can buy lobster maybe, I don't know. While maybe the kids are eating chicken nuggets and captain crunch cereal.

Overall, the food stamp issue is complicated. It's a STRUCTURAL low wage and jobs problem, and that's not the working class's fault, that's the system and corporate profits so high.

[davep]

Overall, the food stamp issue is complicated. It's a STRUCTURAL low wage and jobs problem, and that's not the working class's fault, that's the system and corporate profits so high.

Good point. For those on low wages, resorting to this kind of welfare is in fact a subsidy to the employer who doesn't need to pay a living wage.

[Sixstrings]

Good point. For those on low wages, resorting to this kind of welfare is in fact a subsidy to the employer who doesn't need to pay a living wage.

Yes, that honestly is the situation in the US. Walmart should pay their people enough to not qualify for food stamps. Or just go all robots and nobody has a job, I dunno, it's a difficult issue.

edit: or perhaps a combination of both. Walmart's actually agreed to raise wages a little bit, like a dollar or two. And they are also reducing jobs, using auto checkouts and more robotics in warehouses.

Maybe a thing we should try would be the $15 minimum wage, and then also let corps do robots / automation as well, and between those two things it would would work out.

Human growth, AND robot growth! I honestly think if they did raise that min wage to $15, then overall it would grow the entire jobs economy. So maybe automation would grow and if ALL the jobs paid a basic living wage and there is no option to pay people under living wage, then it would just work out and the entire real economy would grow.

[Outcast_Searcher]

It's just Cog being once again a self entitled ass.

Because of COURSE, the people who work the hardest and pay the most taxes should not ONLY have no say about what their money goes for, BUT should also be called out as the evil "politically incorrect" for daring to say they don't appreciate being abused for carrying those who not only don't pay taxes, but get all kinds of "free" stuff from Uncle Sam around on their backs.

Thanks for reminding me that no matter how much the GOP engages in science denial and tries to deny people sexual and reproductive freedom (which I hate) -- I'd NEVER want to join the Democrats who tend to want to manage everyone else's wallet and property rights -- since that is just as evil, despite being politically correct.

[davep]

It's just Cog being once again a self entitled ass.

Because of COURSE, the people who work the hardest and pay the most taxes should not ONLY have no say about what their money goes for, BUT should also be called out as the evil "politically incorrect" for daring to say they don't appreciate being abused for carrying those who not only don't pay taxes, but get all kinds of "free" stuff from Uncle Sam around on their backs.

Thanks for reminding me that no matter how much the GOP engages in science denial and tries to deny people sexual and reproductive freedom (which I hate) -- I'd NEVER want to join the Democrats who tend to want to manage everyone else's wallet and property rights -- since that is just as evil, despite being politically correct.

Remember that the people who earn the most pay very little tax indeed. Loopholes are there for a reason.

[Sixstrings]

This whole foodstamp thing..

YES, too many in the US have foodstamps. Core issue is that too many are too poor, so fix the poverty.

Another way to look at it is to just be like India, and let people be dirt poor and on the street, maybe starve, and kids go hungry. That's the libertarian view on it. It can work, India does it, it's a different kind of life but it's very cold and not what America is about. We are in fact still a first world top tier economy nation, we actually can do better.

Personal responsibility matters too, conservatives are right on that to an extent, but it's also the system.

Some better trade policy, raise the min wage to a living wage, AND THEN STOP illegal immigration (that's the key component liberals are not for). And that would fix it.

I mean, I honestly do see both sides of it. Some of it is cultural. If we could change our culture somehow and all become South Koreans, then all Americans would be working extremely hard from kindegarten through all their life. South Koreans, and Asians in general, are serious business hard workers.

So maybe we've got cultural problems, decline of the church and family, I don't know.

Then look at French and Danes.. overall they get to enjoy life so much more, so much paid time off work and such, more vacations. France is so "socialist" yet it keeps chugging along somehow. (maybe that ends, with too much immigration and maybe becomes unsustainable).

EASIEST SOLUTION -- just tackle immigration and raise the frickin' min wage, already.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Here Cog, a more appropriate target to place your rage.
The problem is that this target doesn't wait in line at the check out counter!

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/1 ... astructure

Right. Because "truth" is based on a whining fact-free screed of an opinion piece, devoid of meaningful documentation.

But by all means, blaming "the super rich" on the lack of infrastructure spending is "logical". Sure.

If only whining about the rich did 1% as much good as WORKING toward not being poor, you might be onto something. However, the rich pay an outsized proportion of the income taxes, which could help fund things like the infrastructure (instead of even more wealth redistribution programs, for example). Don't like the spending plans? See your congressperson and the low and middle class folks who hate to pay taxes which vote for them.

[AdTheNad]

So Cog, when corporations avoid paying any and all taxes they legally can get away with, as a shareholder you demand nothing less - however when real humans act in ways to maximise their own utility through legal means it makes you stew in anger?

[vtsnowedin]

There are various figures for the amount of fraud in the program and they run between 1.5 and 4.5 percent but taking an average of just 3 percent of an 80 Billion $ program is a lot of money.
But even the vast majority that really qualify for a card are free to make poor choices with the money (That's what a EBT card is , a form of money) and because they have the groceries bill covered by the card are then free to spend any other income they have on all those things like ice that tax payers would not want to foot the bill for.
So the tax payers are subsidizing the poor persons smoking and drinking habits and will then have to foot the bill for their increased medical care needs created by that consumption.
It doesn't do any good to be angry about it but I can understand an occasional rant about it.

[salinsky]

Cog could solve the EBT problem by using the approach he suggested on how to deal with the hippies hanging from the bridge. He said he had numerous and humorous ideas, one of which was shooting them. Cog is man with a clear approach on how to solve complex problems. COG FOR PRESIDENT!!!

[Outcast_Searcher]

Remember that the people who earn the most pay very little tax indeed. Loopholes are there for a reason.

You've been drinking too much liberal Kool-aid.

The wealthy pay a huge proportion of the income taxes. Lying about it doesn't increase your credibility. You can find this on the IRS website and lots of other places with simple searches. They are punished on top of that with estate and inheritance taxes, by the way.

http://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/who- ... come-taxes

So bottom 50% income share of federal taxpayers under 3% of federal income taxes paid. Top 1% of income taxpayers pay over 38% of the federal income tax. And again, this is BEFORE the punative estate and inheritance taxes are counted.

But let's not let facts distort the "attack the rich even if you have to lie a lot" mantra, right?

[Sixstrings]

@outcast
You're right that the wealthy do pay a lot of taxes

but

Dave is also right that the wealthy and corps use all the loopholes and "food stamps" they can get their hands on, too

Just a general note, by the way.. Dollar General, in the OP, is actually MEANT for lower income shoppers. If one wants a higher class of shoppers around you, then there are OTHER stores to go to. Things may cost more, but nothin's free in life.

You get what you pay for.

If I walk into a Family Dollar or a Dollar General, then I already know what I'm walking into and don't expect different.

Cog is like expecting caviar and arugula, at the Piggly Wiggly.

Or, like going into a dive bar, ordering champagne and complaining the bikers are "uncouth." It's a dive bar, that's what it is. If you choose to slum it, then you just gotta roll with it man. This is Dollar General, this is what it is.

P.S. Cog would have more of a gripe if it were a mixed-class store, or higher end.

Personally, I live in an income-mixed area. I've got a Family Dollar close to me. It's NASTY. It's just so gross. I get depressed just walking into that thing, it's got literally homeless people shopping there. Yet.. it's close.. it's actually not even the cheapest though, sometimes poor stores COST MORE.

So..

What I wind up doing, more often is driving OUT of my way to shop at a nicer store. And then, some places like a "save a lot," I'd never STEP FOOT into that.

And then, we've got a chain of very NICE grocery stores down here and if you go into that one you can be sure of a great experience -- but your darn bill will be at least 1/3 more, if not 50% higher. Or, there's whole foods and trader joe's etc. There's options in most places, you get what you pay for, Dollar Generals are just a lower level.

[Quinny]

This thread is surreal - the guy who supports shareholders rights allowing them to screw the world and everyone in it getting excited over someone needing some ice WTF.

[Cog]

This thread is surreal - the guy who supports shareholders rights allowing them to screw the world and everyone in it getting excited over someone needing some ice WTF.

I am unsure how people who buy shares in publicly held companies "screw the world". I do know that people who buy bags of ice on my dime are screwing me and every other taxpayer. I doubt whether I shamed the woman much. Members of the FSA typically are incapable of shame or guilt about mooching off the taxpayers and producers in the world. They feel they are owed something. Free stuff.

[Newfie]

Cog,

You didn't respond to the well put above post about CORPORATE welfare.

Sure the woman on welfare is screwing you.

About half as much as the corporate exec you support is screwing you.

Or you think you are part of the corporate screwing (through your ownership of stock) and support the corporate welfare because you are the recipient?

.........
I'm not against you being pissed. I just want make sure you don't miss some of the well deserved targets of your justified vile.

[Cog]

Well Newfie it is like this. I've worked in the corporate world at different levels for a good long time excluding my six years in the military. I've never been jealous of rich and successful people. I wish there were even more of them. At least with corporate welfare, if there is such a thing, society gets a payback in the form of employed people. Most people in the USA work for some sort of corporation, even if they are stocking shelves or being a retail clerk. They are happy to have a job. Do we not want people to be gainfully employed? Does work suck so much that we want more people sitting on their ass all day complaining about life is so unfair to them?

The folks who are constant consumers of free stuff just reproduce and generate nothing of value to me. Corporations generate profits, return value to increasing stock prices and dividends and provide employment to millions. The return on our corporate welfare actually generates something positive. Were it within my power I would give even more tax breaks to the producers of value since everyone wins from their success.

I've never been hired to work by a poor person. I generally have nothing against poor people as long as they take their dole and don't overly complain about how little they are able to steal from my wallet.

Government is all consuming hydra that takes money not rightfully theirs and distributes it to people who provide little or nothing in return. Government has certain things it does well. Taking care of people is not one of them. You and I both work for government at some levels. You directly and myself indirectly through government contracts. I build roads and bridges. You are involved somehow in transportation unless I am confusing you with someone else. We do provide something of value for the taxes taken.

[Henriksson]

I'm indignant that grasshoppers like you are consuming my planet. I'm much more important than you, stop wasting my oxygen.

This is satire.