[Hawkcreek]

Let's just say I am unhappy with the fact that I have to deal with this issue from a position of weakness. He has all the rights and I have none. Do I have the right to request his latest mental evaluation? Do you think wearing a gun to the man's house makes me safer? Society says I have to accept him as a normal law abiding person until the time that he shoots me. Then as I bleed out on the floor I can rest assured he will be prosecuted as the criminal he turned out to be.

This may not be it... but there is a limit to the amount of risk a person is willing to walk into.

You have the right to quit your job and stay at home.
All those things you say are true of almost everyone you meet out in the world.
In your case, I would say that you do not have the "right" to feel safe.
For that to happen, you would have to be in total control of everyone you meet. Maybe that is why the elite always strive for control - they don't feel safe.
Life is a risk - get over it and move on. There is a one hundred percent chance that you will end up dead in less than a hundred years, so at least try to have a little fun along the way.

[ROCKMAN]

yc – “…but it also means that in the unlikely event that someone breaks into my home they aren't likely to be armed either.” I’m envious because if someone breaks into my home in Houston it’s almost 100% certain they’ll be armed. If someone tries to jack my car it’s almost 100% certain they’ll be armed. If someone tries to mug someone during their run in Memorial Park it’s almost 100% certain they’ll be armed with a firearm or knife.

And in almost 100% of those situations the weapon would have been illegally purchased so matter what the guns laws were in Houston it wouldn’t change any of the examples I just gave. So I’ll ask you the same question as baha: “unlikely” doesn’t mean zero chance that someone armed could break into your home and take your life or that of someone you cared for: would you want to be armed at that point? Yes: bad things can happen when a law abiding and armed citizen reacts poorly to a situation. A careless reaction as just happened two weeks ago by a woman in Houston: the car to her right began to drift into her lane so she jerked her car to the right. Unfortunately by reacting poorly she hit a school bus knocking it off the freeway overpass killing two 14 yo kids.

And for Ibon – “Driving is a privilege. You lose it if you drink.” No…you don’t. I’ve known countless people who drank and drove on a regular basis and never knew one of them to be denied a license. Even folks who are convicted of driving drunk permanently typically don’t lose their license. And my half-brother who lost his license after 2 DWI convictions continued to drive drunk. Folks make bad decisions have accidents all the time. So how is doing so while driving any different than when it involves a firearm?

[Cog]

To add to what Rockman stated, conceal carry or owning a firearm in the home, is pretty much like purchasing hazard insurance on your house. I've never lived in a house or apartment that had a house fire, but I still buy the insurance, have a fire extinguisher, and smoke alarms. I've never been mugged or had my house broken into, but there is still a a non-zero chance that it can happen. I want to even the odds in my favor if it does. I'm not getting any younger either. In my prime perhaps I could have taken on a burglar hand to hand. Now, not so much.

[Cog]

You shouldn't carry if you don't feel its necessary. I carry because I can and I do feel its necessary. To each his own.

[SeaGypsy]

Having lived a pretty wild life, living in a lot of rough areas, there have been about 2 occasions it would have been very nice to have a gun, one I got jumped on & needed some patching up ( the guy served 6 months, went on to do more stupid shit & spent more years in jail), the other I simply sprinted away from. So in the two incidents where I may have wound up killing someone or being killed, neither happened.

Personally I'm very confident that common sense & intuition provide more safety than a gun in my jocks would. Yet I'm not against American style gun laws- with the proviso that clear red flags should be in place. Primarily bullying, victimising behaviour & violent crime instigation should make buying weapons at least legally impossible. Storage is very important of course.

As to AU's style gun laws, the chicken has already flown on that coop in the USA, there will always be a significant black market, so the only answer to criminals with guns has to be being outnumbered by good citizens with guns. However, the good citizens should have a right to know their supplier is not able to anonymously or otherwise supply known threats. Obviously a case of watch this space.

[Newfie]

I can see this gun debate heating up. I've not completely fixed my mind on my position, as if my option matters.

We seem to be focusing on some high profile shootings. They are tragic, no doubt. But I believe the vast majority of gun crimes are not of that type. I don't have the stats, but some will correct me if I'm wrong.

The majority are young black males killing young black males. Mostly drug related. If you seperate out that cohort then the gun safety issue looks a lot different. But I have not the slightest clue how to manage the situation using that information.

Then you can look It by firearm type. The vast majority of violent crimes are committed with hand guns or cheap high capacity, small caliber weapons designed to kill people. Think Glock, AR, AK. Remove that cohort and the picture looks very different.

I see some merit in restricting a lot of gun types, making them illegal. Of course you then run into definitional issues. Practically speaking my 308 pump gun is a very lethal weapon designed for big game hunting while a .223 semi-auto military style rifle is actually less lethal, but was designed to allow marginally trained foot soldiers intimidate and kill humans.

I see little harm in outlawing the guns without legitimate peaceful function. I have no faith whatsoever effective definitions can be developed. In arguing with my liberal friends I find that they have very concurred ideas of what guns are and what they do. Say GUN and I picture a 22 or 410. They see Rambo. I suspect that many others form their opinions on guns from watching shoot em up movies and TV and violent games. I have my impression from field dressing game, not all dies easily or neatly. No damn way I want anything to do with a gun fight, no matter how well armed I am. Or the legal system in the aftermath, no matter how well justified.

Personally I fell next to zero need to have a gun for self defense. My credo has been....if you feel a need for a loaded weapon in the house for self defense MOVE. I get that attitude from my Father who was life long hunter, NRA lifetime member, who owned no hand guns, and was opposed to them. He was arena toy opposed to having a loaded gun in the house for protection but kept a single 410 next to his desk. We were pretty rural. He is a long time gone. I have no idea how the NRA has so completly lost its mind.

This is one of those debates which makes me feel as though I have outlived my time and place in this planet.

[Keith_McClary]

You should move to a state like Maryland or Hawaii. You won't have to worry about anyone being armed except for the criminals. That should make you feel a lot safer.

Are you statistically less safe in those states? Hawaii has the third lowest rate of gun murders. Maryland not so good. I guess you have a racial explanation for that.

[Loki]

We seem to be focusing on some high profile shootings. They are tragic, no doubt. But I believe the vast majority of gun crimes are not of that type. I don't have the stats, but some will correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct. I checked the numbers on this graphic and they are correct, using CDC data from 2013 and mass shooting data from Mother Jones, also using 2013 data. Mass shootings accounted for 0.00139% of all deaths in the US in 2013, and 0.32% of homicides by firearms. 2013 saw a higher than average number of deaths in mass shootings, by the way (36, compared to 21.2/yr on average from 2000-2014).

The majority are young black males killing young black males.

Correct again. 57.5% of homicides with firearms were committed by blacks in 2013, the overwhelming majority of those male. Again based on CDC data. 13.2% of the US population is black as of 2014 US Census data.

Then you can look It by firearm type. The vast majority of violent crimes are committed with hand guns or cheap high capacity, small caliber weapons designed to kill people. Think Glock, AR, AK. Remove that cohort and the picture looks very different.

Handguns are designed to kill people, generally speaking. The number of people killed by rifles in the US is quite small. The great majority are killed by handguns. According to the FBI: "Handguns comprised 71.9 percent of the firearms used in murder and nonnegligent manslaughter incidents in 2012." They don't have data on "assault weapons" because this is an arbitrary category of firearms, defined entirely by the political class.

I see some merit in restricting a lot of gun types, making them illegal....

I see little harm in outlawing the guns without legitimate peaceful function....

Personally I fell next to zero need to have a gun for self defense. My credo has been....if you feel a need for a loaded weapon in the house for self defense MOVE....

Here's where you are completely, utterly, and thoroughly full of shit.

As for "zero need to have a gun for self defense" you've mentioned on multiple occasions your "911," which I've corrected more than once (it's a 1911). This is a weapon designed to kill people. Feel free to send it to me for proper disposal.

[Loki]

My question is do I have a right to feel safe? Will society let me refuse to do business with someone who I feel is threatening?

You sound like a bed wetter. Maybe a desk job would would work out for you. Or maybe stay home in your pajamas and let the woman bring home the bacon.

[Loki]

You should move to a state like Maryland or Hawaii. You won't have to worry about anyone being armed except for the criminals. That should make you feel a lot safer.

Are you statistically less safe in those states? Hawaii has the third lowest rate of gun murders. Maryland not so good. I guess you have a racial explanation for that.

You're right, race is utterly irrelevant.

Hawaii:
Pct Asian....38.6
Pct White...24.7
Pct Black....1.6

Maryland:
Pct Asian....5.5
Pct White...58.2
Pct Black....29.5

http://censusviewer.com

I refer you to the 57.5% figure I cited above. Feel free to refute it.

[davep]

Risk is a product of severity and likelihood. In this case the potential severity is high but the likelihood is extremely low, so the overall risk is low. How often do service providers get attacked like this?

[Newfie]

Loki,

Yes I did buy a couple of 1911's a few years ago. They are locked up in my ammo box. Should my planning fail and I end up in someplace where I need to have some self protection the I have them available. In the meantime they represent a good investment.

I said I have "NEXT to zero" need for a hand gun. we all make minor mistakes now and again. It's no big deal.

Calling someone "completely full of shit" does little to demonstrate your rhetorical skills or forward your point.

It seems the prevailing attitude (not your or mine, among the populace) is the need to reduce the murder rate among young black males. Or maybe not. Perhaps the attitude is of horror because some outside that demographic have been slaughtered. I think that these are two separate phenomenon which require different approaches.

I don't think we, as a country, have even defined what problem we are trying to solve. I do think the anti gun folks are emotionally jumping to a solution without knowing the cause.

Back to the OP, your chances of having a bad incident in suburbia are far less than in an inner city ghetto, after dark. You probably have little to fear. Yet, only you can make that call, only you know the circumstances. Just don't let the media rabble run your life.

[Ibon]

In past times when life was inherently more risky people did not spend a lot of time with fear. Now we live in an age where life is comparatively far more secure. And yet we live more fearfully.

That famous line that there is nothing to fear but fear itself.

It is a mental obsession. I would suggest that the more fully one lives ones life the less fearful one becomes.

We live in an age where the collective out there seems to be more defensive, less trusting, more fearfully neurotic. Each day that passes is one less day you have left to live. So each day you live with this fearful orientation is another day wasted. What a shame. Here is the irony folks. Each day wasted was a day that you mentally shot yourself in the head with a gun..................

[Cog]

are you saying that people that conceal carry are obsessed?if so you really don't understand people that take their security seriously. I could explain it to you but I doubt you would understand it and it would be a waste of my time to even attempt it.

[Ibon]

are you saying that people that conceal carry are obsessed?if so you really don't understand people that take their security seriously. I could explain it to you but I doubt you would understand it and it would be a waste of my time to even attempt it.

To a degree yes I am saying this. Let's try this orientation and see if this makes sense to you. The 8th leading cause of death in the US is influenza and Pneumonia with 56,979 deaths per year. Being killed by a criminal is not even in the top 20. So if you apply logically your reasons for conceal carry than you should also be walking around with a hermetically sealed glass bubble to mitigate your risk of dying of the flu along with carrying your fire arm. But I guess you don't do this do you?

[Cog]

Do yourself a favor. why not quit worrying about what I am doing that harms you in no way possible. Look up the statistics on the threat that I as a licensed carrier pose to you by conceal carrying. We are the most safe demographic that you can find. We have been vetted by the FBI, the state police, and local law enforcement, and we have been trained to conceal carry. So put that in your paranoid mind and come up with some of the reason of why I am a threat to you.

For Some reason you are not content with controlling your own life you want to control everyone's lives around you.

[Newfie]

Look up the statistics on the threat that I as a licensed carrier pose to you by conceal carrying. We are the most safe demographic that you can find. We have been vetted by the FBI, the state police, and local law enforcement, and we have been trained to conceal carry.

Sometimes less is more.

[Cog]

That is fine Newfie, you want less and I want more. how about you go your way in life and I will go my way in life and we will call it good?