[Ibon]

Do yourself a favor. why not quit worrying about what I am doing that harms you in no way possible. . So put that in your paranoid mind and come up with some of the reason of why I am a threat to you.

For Some reason you are not content with controlling your own life you want to control everyone's lives around you.

This is not about me. I am not particularly polarized on this issue of gun ownership. I am trying to get to the bottom of the emotional and illogical part. This paranoia and illogical orientation affects both the political extremes. If the risk of any of us being involved in a serial killing is infinitesimal small then living with the fear of this happening is illogical, whether that means going out and buying a fire arm or trying to over legislate gun ownership. I am trying to use statistics here as a device to reveal the illogical orientation.

Let's take this a step further. Let's put aside being murdered by a criminal with a fire arm. Let's look at simply being a victim of a crime. What are the average per capita incidents of the average citizen to be held up and robbed in a given lifetime? Or broken into their home while they are there? Let's say on average this would happen 5 times in each persons lifetime. Would it be more or less than this? I am not sure. So we have two columns of inconvenience and loss. One one column is the average value of goods stolen and the inconvenience of replacing lost items. On the other column is the cost of the fire arm, ammunition and inconvenience as well as risk of carrying this around with you at all times in order to have a chance to use this in self defense to one of these crime events.

Each person has to look at this logically. I do not carry around with me a fire arm nor have one in my home. Neither in the US or here in this remote location in Panama. That is my choice looking at the logic in probability of incidents.

I would suggest that many people who own fire arms do not do the statistical probability analysis or else they really wouldn't bother. This suggests that owning the firearm comes more from an irrational fear over threats. And then owning the fire arm provides a sense of security to this irrational fear.

You can't argue with statistics and numbers. Which of course will now invite a gun owner to throw out the statistics that cities with concealed carry have less crime incidents then cities that don't. So we should all carry fire arms to reduce risk and have them in our schools and public places. This is the paranoid mind taking over. This is when a society goes crazy.

We have still not addressed the quality of life issue of living with this level of fear and paranoia.

[Ibon]

A silly analogy. We all engage in cost/benefit analysis when we walk out the door or cross the street. It's easy (and quite exciting) to pack heat. Putting wheels on a glass bubble? Not so much.

As I mentioned we haven't talked yet about the quality of life issue in terms of this orientation. The excitement of packing heat is going out your door with the mind set that something could happen and you have the capability to defend yourself.

Does this excitement come from real tangible threats or a life that is unfulfilled and bored and tamed and domesticated and compromised to the point that one creates these fantasy threats in their head and then goes out and about with their fire arm ready.

Counter intuitively it is a life lived too soft and without threats that creates this "need" of fantasy threats that justifies walking around with a concealed fire arm.

I am just being purely logical here about probability.

It seems like folks haven't taken enough risks in their lives otherwise they wouldn't be so deluded by these fantasy threats that motivate them to carry around a fire arm.

These are just my opinions, I am not so attached to them. I take every ones rebuttals seriously..

[Cog]

You guys are operating on a false assumption. There is no excitement to conceal carry. If anything, it is a pain in the ass to dress around your holster and spare mag.

But by all means continue your narrative that only paranoid Republicans conceal carry. It is most entertaining.

[Cog]

Here's a timely story. Customer shoots at two suspected shoplifters as they leave Auburn Hills Home Depot

According to authorities, the woman witnessed a man exiting the Home Depot while being followed by loss prevention officers. The man attempted to flee in a small, dark sport utility vehicle, at which point the woman pulled out her concealed 9mm handgun and opened fire in the Home Depot parking lot.

I assume the shooter is white. Why? Because if she were black then the store detectives would have fired back at her.

How many blacks have been killed in the city of Chicago by other blacks this year? Do you even care about black lives? Are you a racist of some sort?

[GHung]

Ibon said earlier: "In past times when life was inherently more risky people did not spend a lot of time with fear. Now we live in an age where life is comparatively far more secure. And yet we live more fearfully."

I have to agree. When I was in first grade, and throughout grade school, I walked to and from school, as did a lot of kids, in the city/suburbs. These days, in a small community that is arguably one of the safest in the US, not only do most kids not walk, but their mothers have their cars waiting for the buses down at the end of their driveways and roads to take their kids home the last few hundred feet.

Our Sheriff’s Department gives monthly firearm classes which are usually fully booked, especially with women wanting to get their carry permits. I also have a friend who does gun training, and he says business has been on the rise for years, even though our community has seen a decrease in violent crime.. Clearly, the fear factor is on the rise as well. Not sure why; maybe TV and media making folks more fearful, or perhaps an underlying feeling that our future is, overall, less secure. Damn doomers. Anyway, I came across this a few minutes ago:

...I look around and I know. None of this -- the municipal complex, the school across the street, the supermarket up the road -- is built for 100 years, especially not this hundred years. It won’t last. And I can’t imagine a better future version of this either. What comes to mind instead are apocalyptic images, cheesy ones cribbed from The Walking Dead, that zombie series on AMC; The Day After, a 1980s made-for-TV dramatization of a nuclear attack on the United States; Cormac McCarthy’s haunting novel The Road; Brad Pitt’s grim but ultimately hopeful World War Z; and The Water Knife, a novel set in the western United States in an almost waterless near future.

They all rush into my head and bump up against the grainy black-and-white documentary footage of Hiroshima in 1945 that I saw way too young and will never forget. This place, this playground, empty, rusted, submerged in water, burned beyond recognition, covered in vines, overrun by trees. Empty. Gone.

Then, of course, Madeline brings me back to our glorious present. She wants to get out of the swing and hit the slides. She’s fearless, emphatic, and purposeful. She deserves a future. Her small body goes up those steps and down the slide over and over and over again. And the rush of that slide is new every time. She shouts and laughs at the bottom and races to do it again. Now. Again. Now. This is reality. But my fears are real, too. The future is terrifying. To have a child is to plant a flag in the future and that is no small responsibility.

We Have Nothing to Fear but...

We mothers hear a lot these days about how to protect our children. We hear dos and don’ts from mommy magazines, from our own mothers, our pediatricians, each other, from lactation experts and the baby formula industry, from the Centers for Disease Control and the Food and Drug Administration, from Doctor Bob Sears, from sociologists and psychiatrists and child development specialists. We are afraid for our kids who need to be protected from a world of dangers, including strangers, bumblebees, and electrical outlets.

Such threats are discussed, dissected, and deconstructed constantly in the media and ever-newer ones are raised, fears you never even thought about until the nightly news or some other media outlet brought them up. But hanging over all these humdrum, everyday worries is a far bigger fear that we never talk about and that you won’t read about in that mommy magazine or see in any advice column. And yet, it’s right there, staring us in the face every single day, constant, existential, too big to name.

We can’t say it, but we are increasingly afraid of the future, of tomorrow, afraid for our children in ways that, in themselves, are frightening to bring up. It’s as diffuse as “anything can happen” and as specific as we are running out of ______ [fill in the blank: clean water, fossil fuels, space for people, arable land, cheap food stuffs, you name it]. Even if the supply of whatever you chose to think about isn’t yet dwindling in our world, you know that it will one of these days. Whatever it is, that necessity of everyday life will be gone (or too expensive for ordinary people) by ______ [2020, 2057, 2106]....

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176053/ ... able/#more

It would be easy for most to dismiss these things as doomspeak or self-fulfilling prophecies, those who don't take a longer view of history and the future.

For others, happiness is a warm gun, eh? At least I raised my kids to be generally fearless and aware, as they also are raising their kids.

[Cog]

I thought you doomers were all about the collapse of society and the attendant violence that is to come in the next 10,15, 20 years. Don't you want people to be able to defend themselves against the mutant zombie bikers in such a world?

[GHung]

We'll probably be defending against those of you with a strong sense of entitlement who didn't prep at all, except for the gun part. People who go through life taking what they want (calling it 'work') will keep doing so, or at least try.

[Cog]

We'll probably be defending against those of you with a strong sense of entitlement who didn't prep at all, except for the gun part. People who go through life taking what they want (calling it 'work') will keep doing so, or at least try.

What makes you think I am not a prepper?

[Ibon]

You guys are operating on a false assumption. There is no excitement to conceal carry. If anything, it is a pain in the ass to dress around your holster and spare mag.

That is what I was also referring to when doing a logical analysis and risk assessment. There is a cost to carrying a weapon and one should look at logically at the risk factor when committing to this. Unless you are in a particularly high risk area and going around with Rolex watches then its hard to justify. That is what I was trying to point out.

But by all means continue your narrative that only paranoid Republicans conceal carry. It is most entertaining.

Why don't you engage with those of us who are not continuing this narrative instead of focusing on those you perceive as doing so. Which raises the question if you are here mainly to lock horns with your ideological opposite. You have to be honest with yourself and with those of us engaging with you, are you here to explore the topic or to troll?

[careinke]

That is fine Newfie, you want less and I want more. how about you go your way in life and I will go my way in life and we will call it good?

Do you feel the same way about pot use? How about same sex marriage? Just curious where you are coming from. You sound suspiciously Libertarian there.

[Cog]

That is fine Newfie, you want less and I want more. how about you go your way in life and I will go my way in life and we will call it good?

Do you feel the same way about pot use? How about same sex marriage? Just curious where you are coming from. You sound suspiciously Libertarian there.

Ok let's explore those two issues. I believe in the legalization of all drugs. I don't use them and I am content with those who do use them to suffer the medical consequences of doing so solely on their own dime. In other words, I want you to have the freedom to wreck yourself if you choose to do so, just don't ask me to pick of the pieces.

Regarding gay marriage. I believe the government erred initially when it established tax consequence for marriage. In other words, you get benefits from the relationship in the tax code. Had that not happened, the rush for gays to form that union would have been diminished. I am a strong supporter of making whatever contract you wish with another to be valid in court. Inheritance, medical decisions, insurance coverage, etc could have all been done by contract and not bring the definition of marriage into it.

But since the government is so imbedded into marriage at this point with regards to the above and to include alimony, child support, and divorce proceedings, my only objection to gay marriage is a religious one. So while I personally object to gay marriage from a moral viewpoint, I can not object to it from a legal point of view because of the government involvement in all aspects of marriage.

[Cog]

You guys are operating on a false assumption. There is no excitement to conceal carry. If anything, it is a pain in the ass to dress around your holster and spare mag.

That is what I was also referring to when doing a logical analysis and risk assessment. There is a cost to carrying a weapon and one should look at logically at the risk factor when committing to this. Unless you are in a particularly high risk area and going around with Rolex watches then its hard to justify. That is what I was trying to point out.

But by all means continue your narrative that only paranoid Republicans conceal carry. It is most entertaining.

Why don't you engage with those of us who are not continuing this narrative instead of focusing on those you perceive as doing so. Which raises the question if you are here mainly to lock horns with your ideological opposite. You have to be honest with yourself and with those of us engaging with you, are you here to explore the topic or to troll?

Any risk analysis must be done by the person involved. I can't possibly advise you whether it is beneficial to conceal carry or not. I don't walk in your daily shoes. But you seem annoyed that I have examined my lifestyle and my security arrangements and have decided to carry. How in the world can you make that judgment for me? Unless I am harming you or others by my actions, then my actions are frankly none of your business.

As far as trolling goes, I am giving you my opinion on the subject and you have a problem with it. So who is trolling who when you continually bother me about a personal decision? Its pretty much like telling me I can't wear a green ball cap because you don't green ball caps. Conceal carry is legal and it was a hard fought legal battle to make it happen in Illinois. The case that made it happen involved a woman named Mary Shepard, a church secretary, that was beaten nearly to death because she could not conceal carry. She wanted to carry and was licensed to do so in other states but not in Illinois because carrying was forbidden in our state.

[Cog]

Here is a pic of the nice church lady who was beaten in her church while doing her assigned duties. Is this the person you want disarmed? Why don't you call her up Ibon and tell her she was foolish for wanting to carry. Tell her how wrong she was. I can probably find her number somewhere.

[Lore]

Well, when you arm up everybody instead of just being beaten you may be shot dead.

[Ibon]

As far as trolling goes, I am giving you my opinion on the subject and you have a problem with it.

I can care less what you do or decide. I have no problem with your decision. I am proposing though the possibility that an emotional rather than a rational assessment may have lead you to this decision as it certainly has with many. I am exploring the potential irrationality of this decision and certainly I am also inviting you to explore that as well and to counter my assessment with an explanation that goes beyond posting pictures..

I would like you to share what you perceive as the potential threats that have made you make this decision vs the inconvenience of carrying a fire arm. What motivated you specifically. Do you work in high crime areas? What are the risks you see?

[Cog]

My motivation breaks out into two separate areas.

First, I do work on a regular basis in some of the more shady parts of both Chicago and St Louis. I am very familiar with Ferguson. Engineering projects take you to a lot of places you really don't like visiting. But I also carry in my very safe city and neighborhood that I live in. I do so because violence is not contained to particular geographic boundaries. The percentages are lower but they are not zero. Which is one reason I brought up Mary Shepard. She didn't live in a high crime area, much the contrary. But she got visited by violence nonetheless. Even in very low crime rate areas, robberies, rapes, and murders do happen. I choose not to be a victim if I have the means to protect myself and my family.

Secondly, the battle to bring conceal carry to Illinois was one I was personally involved in. Illinois was the only state in the union to have no provision for conceal carry. It made no difference how many letters and calls we did with our legislators, the Dem controlled House and Senate simply wouldn't let it come up for a vote. So we waited for the right case to come along and threw our support behind it. Finally the case made it's way to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals and the court basically ordered the legislature to make provision for conceal carry in our state. Its not a perfect law but it is shall issue not may issue.

I carry because I know how hard that people worked to make this happen for me. I want the numbers of permit holders to be so large, that the legislature will know there will be a political penalty to be paid to reverse course on our rights. I carry to prove a point that the narratives that was spun about "blood in the streets" and "its going to be Wild West" are false. Permit holders, on the whole, are some of the safest people you are going to meet.

One thing that is drilled into you continually when you take the classes is that there are two attorneys attached to every bullet that leaves your gun. A prosecuting attorney and a defense attorney.

[Ibon]

Thanks for sharing that Cog. For me your rational is clear. If in the years ahead the statistics do demonstrate that there are no real significant risks of increased gun violence among those that conceal carry than why should anyone have a problem with this? It's a persons choice and it only concerns society at large if and when we would see this resulting in more gun violence.

I have another question and it is very sincere because it addresses the life style side of the equation. You fought hard for this right Cog. That meant that you immersed yourself in the cases like the lady above and perhaps you also focus more than the average person on all the cases where violence is present and examples of self defense and when there was none. Statistically the possibility of something happening to any one individual is small as I pointed out. But when the news always broadcasts violence we tend to focus more attention.

The fact that you have a fire arm with you, a constant reminder that you might be in a situation to use this, has to cause you to think defensively more often than average, has to keep you focused on the potential violence perhaps more than statistically this would be warranted. How do you handle not becoming cynical? How do you handle this orientation which can lead to more distrust toward your fellow man? Does this even concern you? I am really curious about that. If I had a fire arm on me at all times it would be a constant reminder of a potentially violent situation and I would tend to focus more than warranted on this and it would affect my trust level with other people. I would not want that reminder. Are you able to separate this out?

[Cog]

I think carrying has made me more aware of my surroundings. I don't think that equals cynical. But when I'm around people that I don't know or in a bad area, I'm observing what is going on around me. A predator counts on people being oblivious to their surroundings. The way you present yourself can actually can cause the criminal element to avoid you because they are after easy targets.

When you first start to carry, you are nervous about it. Mostly because you don't want to alarm anyone who makes you out as carrying. Conceal carry is only a couple of years old in Illinois and some people don't even realize it is legal. I'm not saying I'm casual about it now but really I don't think much about the gun anymore. Its like putting my cell phone on my belt. Just another thing to keep track of. What I have discovered is that most people are totally oblivious to you, even if you are printing badly with a carry piece. They are wrapped up in their own world of texting, chatting, and whatnot.

I do avoid going out at night since crimes tend to happen more in the dark hours. But I always have done that. Don't much care for crowds either but I never did like being in a mob of people. So to answer your question, except for being a bit more vigilant about my surroundings, conceal carry really hasn't changed the way I interact with society and being out in public.

There are always going to be turds in any group of people. That includes permit holders. But in the main, those who carry do everything they can possibly do to never draw their gun. Because we know all to well a world of crap is going to follow that decision, even if we are eventually vindicated in that decision.

I hope I answered your questions but if not feel free to ask more.