[Plantagenet]

You think there are no independence struggles going in western countries other than Israel? Think again......

Don't these people at least have full citizenship rights?

?????

You haven't answered my question. Do you claim, along with Yellowcanoe, that there are no independence struggles going in western Countries? And yes, these independence struggles go on even where local peoples are granted "full citizenship." ---

------------------

Yellowcanoe seems to think its OK for non-western people to invade and oppress other peoples, and you and yellow canoe both seem to believe that its OK for Spain to occupy Catalonia, for instance, or the UK to occupy Ireland, or Turkey to occupy Kurdistan, or the US to occupy "Indian country" or the US to occupy Puerto Rico as long as the local people are granted "full citizenship."

Well---it turns out not everyone wants to be a citizen of Spain or the UK or the USA or turkey. Most countries have occupied parts of other people's land. And full citizenship doesn't help----Many Irish people in northern Ireland want to part of the Republic of Ireland, and many Catalonian people want to live in an independent Catalonia, many Kurds want to be independent from Turkey and many Puerto Ricans want independence from the USA for their island country. And yes, the exact same thing is true in israel--- many Palestinian people in Israel who have "full citizenship" still want to live in an independent Palestine.

Cheers!


The IRA doesn't want "full citizenship rights" in the UK. "Full citizenship rights" falls well short of their goals.

[yellowcanoe]

Good objective analysis of the situation over there Yellow.

I really appreciate that. Sure beats the abuse I am getting from the pro-Israel faction on a Facebook thread. One of the contributers on that discussion is a pro second amendent, anti Obama, pro Ted Cruz character. What hurts is that this asshole lives in my own country! I sure was happy when Ted Cruz renounced his Canadian citizenship.

[yellowcanoe]

Yellowcanoe seems to think its OK for non-western people to invade and oppress other peoples

Absolutely. In fact, I was thinking that it's time for Canada to invade and annex Alaska. There is no reason for the US to have a state that isn't joined to the lower 48 states. Alaska would be a good fit for Canada as we are both cold places. Of course it would not be all roses for Alaskans -- they would be forced to accept public health care and stronger gun control.

[Keith_McClary]

Do you claim, along with Yellowcanoe, that there are no independence struggles going in western Countries?

No, quit putting words in my mouth. And how could you forget

The IRA doesn't want "full citizenship rights" in the UK. "Full citizenship rights" falls well short of their goals.

The point is, the Palestinians do not even have that option, nor do they have any hope of freedom from settler domination. Do you believe in the "peace process" farce?

[Plantagenet]

how could you forget

I didn't forget Scotland----they are another example that supports my point. The Scots are yet another example of a people in a European country who are engaged in a moment to set up their own country in spite of having "full citizenship" in the UK. So far there has been no violence there, thank goodness.

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The real problem for Israel is that they don't have a negotiating partner to make peace with. Israel ALREADY tried to make peace with the PLO by giving the Gaza Strip back to the PLO. What did the PLO do? They were so incompetent they were overthrown in a coup by Islamist radicals in Hamas who have the destruction of Israel as their principal goal.

And what did the PLO do just last week? They repudiated the Camp David peace treaty. How can Israel make peace with a group that won't even live up to a peace treaty?

Face facts---the PLO is not trustworthy and is incapable of ruling and Hamas has no interest in making peace with Israel.

Cheers!


Peace!

[Keith_McClary]

Israel ALREADY tried to make peace with the PLO by giving the Gaza Strip back to the PLO. What did the PLO do? They were so incompetent they were overthrown in a coup by Islamist radicals in Hamas who have the destruction of Israel as their principal goal.

Hamas was elected. It was the elected parliament that was removed by a coup in the West Bank.

Israel has never made a final settlement offer. They just keep grabbing more.

[yellowcanoe]

I didn't forget Scotland----they are another example that supports my point. The Scots are yet another example of a people in a European country who are engaged in a moment to set up their own country in spite of having "full citizenship" in the UK. So far there has been no violence there, thank goodness.

As someone of Scottish origin I am quite apalled that Scots want to separate from the UK. Scotland already has special rights not provided to the majority of residents in England. It's the same nonsense in Canada where all kinds of consessions have been made to Quebec in an effort to encourage them to stay in Canada

The real problem for Israel is that they don't have a negotiating partner to make peace with. Israel ALREADY tried to make peace with the PLO by giving the Gaza Strip back to the PLO. What did the PLO do? They were so incompetent they were overthrown in a coup by Islamist radicals in Hamas who have the destruction of Israel as their principal goal.

Hamas were elected to office in the Gaza strip because people were fed up with the corruption in the Palestinian Authority. I agree that it was stupid for Hamas to start launching rockets at Israel.

And what did the PLO do just last week? They repudiated the Camp David peace treaty. How can Israel make peace with a group that won't even live up to a peace treaty?

You kind of lost me there. It is the Palestinian Authority that represent the West Bank. Does the PLO still exist?? What would it even mean for the Palestinians to repudiate the Camp David treaty given that it was an agreement between Egypt and Israel? I can't find a link to verify your statement.

[Keith_McClary]

Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.
The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts.[3][4] In particular the Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, British, and United States governments, and in media such as The New York Times newspaper,[5][6] and by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry.,[7][8] the 1946 Zionist Congress[9] and the Jewish Agency.[10] Irgun's tactics appealed to a certain segment of the Jewish community that believed that any action taken in the cause of the creation of a Jewish state was justified, including terrorism.[11]
The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party.[12] Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

[Cog]

Palestinian children taught in schools on how to stab Jews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1-6y8xAfI

[Keith_McClary]

Palestinian children taught in schools on how to stab Jews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1-6y8xAfI

Danny Danon asserted in 2013 that the Likud party has no place for anyone supporting a peace agreement with the Palestinians. He is opposed to a Two-state solution. He argues for exending Israeli sovereignty over the majority of the West Bank, 'with the minimum number of Palestinians.'[9]
The Irgun/Likud are doing a good job of minimizing the number of Palestinians. Their Final Solution is zero Palestinians.

[Plantagenet]

As someone of Scottish origin I am quite apalled that Scots want to separate from the UK.

Why do the Scots need the UK? They are quite capable of governing themselves.

I agree that it was stupid for Hamas to start launching rockets at Israel.

Hamas not only launches rockets at israel, their political position is that Israel must be destroyed. There is no way they will ever sign a lasting peace treaty with Israel.

What would it even mean for the Palestinians to repudiate the Camp David treaty given that it was an agreement between Egypt and Israel? I can't find a link to verify your statement.

Sorry---it was the OSLO accords that were repudiated by the Palestinians. The Oslo Accords were a treaty agreed to by the PLO and Israel in 1993. The Oslo Accords paved the way for the PLO to transmogrify into the PA, return to Palestine, and become the de facto government of the West Bank.

By repudiating the Oslo Accords the PA leaves the Oslo Process---i.e. the peace process set up by the Oslo Accords is over because the Palestinians have decided they won't keep their treaty commitments.

Cheers!

Oslo_Accords

[Keith_McClary]

The Oslo Accords were a treaty agreed to by the PLO and Israel in 1993. The Oslo Accords paved the way for the PLO to transmogrify into the PA, return to Palestine, and become the de facto government of the West Bank.

By repudiating the Oslo Accords the PA leaves the Oslo Process---i.e. the peace process set up by the Oslo Accords is over because the Palestinians have decided they won't keep their treaty commitments.

Cheers!

Oslo_Accords

The objective of the Oslo Accords was for the Palestinians to be forever stateless subjects of the Eternal Jewish People.

Read the Jewish Tanach. Read the commentaries. It’s all there.

[Sixstrings]

I visited both Jewish areas throughout Israel and Palestianian areas in the west bank. I ate in Palestianian and Jewish Restaurants without any incidents. Thus these killings make me very sad---I was in those very restaurants in Jerusalem and I walked through the old city without incident. Jews and Moslems were living side by side and rubbing along pretty well then.

Great post, Plant. it is very sad.

Here's what I wonder -- is the Iran deal, and the rise of the Russia-Assad-Iran-Hezbollah bloc, behind this problem now in Palestine?

I've been warning about this, on this forum, for a long time now. Iran is connected to Hezbollah and Iran is going to be on the march now in the middle east. With Russia backing it, and Obama having opened up a floodgate of money for Iran, and power vacuum for Iran.

So is that what we are seeing here, with this Iran deal and Iran getting that $40 billion or $100 billion or whatever it was -- are they going after Israel, already?

[Keith_McClary]

Here's what I wonder -- is the Iran deal, and the rise of the Russia-Assad-Iran-Hezbollah bloc, behind this problem now in Palestine?

No, it's the Irgun(=Likud).

[Sixstrings]

Here's what I wonder -- is the Iran deal, and the rise of the Russia-Assad-Iran-Hezbollah bloc, behind this problem now in Palestine?

No, it's the Irgun(=Likud).

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't hezbollah in palestine? Or is that just lebanon?

Does Iran back hamas?

It seems like it can't be coincidence to me, this Iran deal passes and Iran gets all this power, and suddenly palestinians are going after Israelis? Could the two things be connected, was Netanyahu right all along about the iran deal and giving Iran so much power and that it'll be dangerous for Israel?

[onlooker]

From what I understand part of the reason Hamas has gained popularity and won elections is because they have provided real tangible benefits for the Palestinian people. When food, education, medical care are provided that makes the providers very popular. Another factor is the anger and hatred on both sides are just so great over there that peace and the peace process seemed doomed. So a principle statement by Hamas rejecting the notion of Israel has appealed to some of their own people who feel acutely aggrieved. Yet this statement in fact is less extreme then the actions taken by Israel of expanding settlements and waging war for dubious reasons and in process killing many innocent people. When you see pictures and videos of young people throwing rocks at tanks then you get a notion of the relative balance of power. The "terrorist" organization do retaliate but their potency is mostly limited to striking terror to the Jewish people.

[Cog]

Perhaps the Palestinians could settle in Syria. There seems to be some room with all the Syrians traveling to Europe.

[onlooker]

Perhaps the Palestinians could settle in Syria. There seems to be some room with all the Syrians traveling to Europe.

Actually Cog that is not a bad idea.

[SeaGypsy]

All the rad ones would be very welcome in lovely northern Syria.

[GregT]

Perhaps the Palestinians could settle in Syria. There seems to be some room with all the Syrians traveling to Europe.

Perhaps they could settle in your backyard, confiscate your house, and your local community, impose curfews on you, and limit your movement. Sounds perfectly reasonable for you to become a prisoner on your own land, right Cog? Or maybe being a lowlife anti Palestinian, you deserve to be tortured while they take your multi-generational land away from you and your family?

Tell you what Cog, I'd be the first to make sure you got exactly what you deserve. You complete waste of space.