[EdwinSm]

In answer to the question of who are the Turkmen...

The Turkmen are ethnic Turks who have lived in the region of Syria, Iraq and Iran since the 11th Century.

They are mainly concentrated in the north, in the Turkmen Mountain area in Latakia close to the Turkish border, as well as in Aleppo, Idlib, Homs, Tartus and the Damascus region.

There are no reliable population figures, but they are estimated to number between 1.5 and 3.5 million.

Under the Assad regimes in Syria, the Turkmen were banned from publishing or writing in Turkish. The government did not recognise them or other ethnic groups as minorities, preferring to stress the unity of the Arab nation.

And more fromhttp://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34910389

[Pops]

Looks like Pooty got his titty twisted, better put on a shirt.

[Sixstrings]

In answer to the question of who are the Turkmen...

The Turkmen are ethnic Turks who have lived in the region of Syria, Iraq and Iran since the 11th Century.

They are mainly concentrated in the north, in the Turkmen Mountain area in Latakia close to the Turkish border, as well as in Aleppo, Idlib, Homs, Tartus and the Damascus region.

There are no reliable population figures, but they are estimated to number between 1.5 and 3.5 million.

Under the Assad regimes in Syria, the Turkmen were banned from publishing or writing in Turkish. The government did not recognise them or other ethnic groups as minorities, preferring to stress the unity of the Arab nation.

And more fromhttp://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34910389

(edit: thanks for the info)

Okay so if that's near Latakia then that's nowhere near ISIS.

So why was Russia bombing the Turkmen?

I know nothing about the "turkmen" but so far from what you posted it sounds like they're not like ISIS, it's just a ethnic group like kurds.

So then if Russia is "bombing the turkmen in the turkmen mountains" right off the Turkish border, it's perhaps understandable how maybe turks in turkey watching that would be upset.

We just need more information here, what's the whole story.

If the "turkmen" are bad dudes no better than ISIS, then that would make a difference. If they're more like the kurds, then maybe it's not right they were getting bombed.

[Tanada]

What I am wondering is how does this deep bulge in the border relate to the Turkish 'border adjustments' that were made when the civil war in Syria kicked off?

[Sixstrings]

What I am wondering is how does this deep bulge in the border relate to the Turkish 'border adjustments' that were made when the civil war in Syria kicked off?

How many miles was the border adjustment?

If Turkey did a border adjustment then that was obviously a good idea, because look at the hell Syria is right now.

The central problem about Assad and Syria is that the entire nation cannot stand him, his regime is brutal and oppressive, and all the nations in the region can't stand him either.

Putin and Iran are his only friends. I'm not sure that Putin can force everyone, the Turkmen included, to like Assad.

And none of that makes ISIS any less evil, but it has to be recognized there's various groups in Syria that are opposed to Assad and maybe in some cases it's actually the rebels that are in the right, vs. Assad.

I don't know the whole story of the "turkmen," maybe Assad regime has done nothing but brutal oppression. Maybe the turkmen don't deserve to be bombed. Or if they do deserve it, then someone make that case, if anyone knows.

(I just wonder what the whole story is, do the turkmen just keep to themselves in the turkmen mountains, or were they coming down and bothering Assad's core area, or what? If the turkmen were doing some wrong, then it would be helpful to know what it is)

[SeaGypsy]

Exactly Tànada, Turkey has been taking advantage & shifting the border south. The Turkmen have been cannon fodder in conflicts with the west since at least Gallipoli, ww1. Erdogan likely promised them something to go into Syria & try holding a chunk. To Russia, this puts these soldiers in their generalised category to be blown up.

[Sixstrings]

Exactly Tànada, Turkey has been taking advantage & shifting the border south. The Turkmen have been cannon fodder in conflicts with the west since at least Gallipoli, ww1. Erdogan likely promised them something to go into Syria & try holding a chunk. To Russia, this puts these soldiers in their generalised category to be blown up.

Hm.. are they not indiginous to the area then, did Turkey recently send this ethnic group into this region?

If there's a mountain named after them, common sense would suggest they've been there a while.

[SeaGypsy]

It doesn't matter what ethnicity, they would have been in Turkish uniforms, with Turkish supplied everything.

[Tanada]

Exactly Tànada, Turkey has been taking advantage & shifting the border south. The Turkmen have been cannon fodder in conflicts with the west since at least Gallipoli, ww1. Erdogan likely promised them something to go into Syria & try holding a chunk. To Russia, this puts these soldiers in their generalised category to be blown up.

Hm.. are they not indiginous to the area then, did Turkey recently send this ethnic group into this region?

If there's a mountain named after them, common sense would suggest they've been there a while.

The Leage of Nation, that is to say France and the UK, created that border in the aftermath of World War I. There have been significant disputes from then until now because the border was very arbitrary, not designed to separate ethnic groups. People like the Kurds got themselves split up three ways and no country of their own. The Turks got Turkey, but the way the border was drawn many ethnic Turks were on the wrong side. It has been a hundred years near enough, but when the Syrian civil war started Turkey made 'adjustments' which are not recognized by the UN or Russia. So my question remains, was this bulge just a Turkish claim, or a UN recognized boundary? I makes a huge difference which case is the truth.

[Sixstrings]

I have CNN on now, the reporter is saying that the Pentagon has said before that Russia has buzzed this area before and the Pentagon says there are no ISIS in this area and Russia has no reason to be doing anything in the turkmen mountains.

Mainstream analysis is also that "Turkey is sending a message that it takes its airspace seriously and won't be violated."

[Outcast_Searcher]

Okay so if that's near Latakia then that's nowhere near ISIS.

So why was Russia bombing the Turkmen?

What I find interesting is the outraged reaction to the fact that supposedly (there are conflicting stories), the Turkmen shot the Russian pilots.

So let's see. It's fine for the Russians to bomb the Turkmen because they claim they're bad guys. Never mind that they're not ISIS. But it's a heinous crime for those being bombed to fire back.

No double standard there.

[careinke]

[(edit: thanks for the info)

Okay so if that's near Latakia then that's nowhere near ISIS.

So why was Russia bombing the Turkmen?

I know nothing about the "turkmen" but so far from what you posted it sounds like they're not like ISIS, it's just a ethnic group like kurds.

So then if Russia is "bombing the turkmen in the turkmen mountains" right off the Turkish border, it's perhaps understandable how maybe turks in turkey watching that would be upset.

We just need more information here, what's the whole story.

If the "turkmen" are bad dudes no better than ISIS, then that would make a difference. If they're more like the kurds, then maybe it's not right they were getting bombed.

OK here you go:

1. The Russians are bombing any and all rebel groups in Syria that are trying to oust the Syrian President. This includes both ISIS and Turkmen among others. Now you know why the Russians were bombing the Turkmen, to defend the current Syrian government from attack. By the way, most if not all of these groups are Sunni.

2. Turkey does not want Al-Assad to remain as President, and provide support to the Turkmen group to help overthrow Al Assad. So obviously, if Turkey has an opportunity to shoot down Russian bombers attacking the Turkmen they will take it. This is why Turkey shot down the jet.

3. Iran is primarily Shia, have diplomatic relations with the Syrian government and Russia. In addition, Iran correctly believes it is threatened by the radical Sunni groups such as ISIS. Which is why Iran supports the current Syrian government.

3. The US is fighting primarily Sunni terrorists including ISIS and Al-Qaida. Paradoxically, we support mostly Sunni controlled countries like KSA, Bahrain. The very countries that provide the most support to these groups. Also, in order to not offend anyone we no longer mention the religious connections of these terrorists which has the added benefit of confusing people like you.

Hope this helps.

[Sixstrings]

Okay so if that's near Latakia then that's nowhere near ISIS.

So why was Russia bombing the Turkmen?

What I find interesting is the outraged reaction to the fact that supposedly (there are conflicting stories), the Turkmen shot the Russian pilots.

So let's see. It's fine for the Russians to bomb the Turkmen because they claim they're bad guys. Never mind that they're not ISIS. But it's a heinous crime for those being bombed to fire back.

No double standard there.

Actually, Russia doesn't even admit they bomb the other ethnic groups / moderate rebels.

Russia hasn't been all bad though, this really is an overall mixed picture -- they've been doing a lot against ISIS lately. And to Russia's credit, I've never heard about them doing strikes on the kurds. Rather, there was some talk that they may want to perhaps help the kurds.

So now we have a problem about the "turkmen" in the "turkmen mountains."

Russia has done a lot of good fighting ISIS, but what one CANNOT forget is that is in the context of an entirely different thing that Russia has going on -- cold war with the West, and Russia expanding a bloc. We may be allied with Russia sometimes, but they are still out there trying to forge an empire and have their own aims as well. Which may or may not include war in ukraine again to take more of that, or hybrid war in the Baltics or even Scandinavia.

Hanging on to Assad, their proxy, that's the REASON they are in Syria and ISIS is secondary. So maybe they MAY in fact wind up bombing innocent "turkmen" just because anyone that won't submit to Assad is a rebel.

Syria is so shattered though, everyone rose up against Assad, that Putin would have to bomb EVERYONE.

I feel bad for those pilots, but really Putin shouldn't have sent them to the Turkish border to fly around "turkmen mountain" that's got a bunch of "turkmen" hillfolk living there and probably they just want to keep to themselves and be left alone but aren't anything like what ISIS is.

You just have to know all sides of a story; maybe to them their "turkmen mountain" is just their home and they're defending it.

It's like with the kurds, that's an all ethnic thing too, it's not ideological. Kurds and turkmen aren't like ISIS. Kurds don't go doing terrorism on everyone over some ideology. And turkmen don't either, as far as I know.

The big, massive problem is that Putin really wants to hammer Assad's rule out across the country but then these ethnicities just don't want it and they'll just fight Russia too, same as Assad.

That's why the West has always said "Assad has to go." Because nobody wants Assad, except Putin and Iran.

So wtf do you do, you can't wipe out all the nations all around Syria that are all against Assad, and then all the ethnicities in Syria too, just to make Putin and Iran happy. It's an impossible situation, people just will not accept Assad.

[ROCKMAN]

"Or wtf was Russia doing, just bombing "Turkmen villages" and then yeah the "Turks" in "Turkey" get upset about the "Turkmen" in Syria getting bombed." And we do recall that protecting a group that was ethnically tied to your country but living inside the borders in a neighboring country was the rationale Russia used for invading the Crimea, don't we? And the eastern Ukraine for that matters.

The Turkman lived in Syria. The Turks shot the Russian down to protect their brothers of a different mother...I meant country. Same logic being used by the Russians in the Ukraine.

I don't understand why so many folks are confused: Russia is supplying military support to his ally, Assad. Which simply means that any and all enemies of Assad are targets at least in the eyes of Putin. That includes ISIS who are from a variety of countries apparently including a few from the US. It also includes Syrians fighting against Assad. And Turkmen if they are opposing Assad. In Vietnam we killed nationals from countries outside of Vietnam because they supported the VC and opposed the Vietnamese govt. We killed foreigners, such as Cubans, in Granada for the same reason. We killed Iraqis in Kuwait and followed them back into Iraq and killed a lot more. During WWII we bombed the French (while in France) who supported the Germans.

Suddenly it’s as if killing the enemy of your ally, whoever and wherever you find them, is something new.

[Sixstrings]

I don't understand why so many folks are confused: Russia is supplying military support to his ally, Assad. Which simply means that any and all enemies of Assad are targets at least in the eyes of Putin.

Oh, that's very clear. Yep.

But you know what, the USA doesn't operate that way. When the US went into Iraq it didn't just pick a favored dictator and then have the USAF just go bomb random ethnic groups. In Afghanistan, and Iraq, the USA did and does everything possible to bring people together and respect ethnicities and work toward them having voice in government so that's a real solution.

It's a very different way of thinking. Real solutions (at least trying), versus iron fisted rule and just hammering all opposition.

Maybe the Russian way is more effective, but it's just not the Western way. Westerners care about people, like is some group just an ethnicity that really just wants to be left alone on their mountain -- well maybe we can just work something out, rather than just hammer them.

[Sixstrings]

I just heard Obama on tv saying the same thing I said:

Obama: Turkey has the right to defend itself and its airspace

"This points to an ongoing problem with the Russian operations," Obama said. "They are operating very close to a Turkish border, and they are going after moderate opposition that are supported by not only Turkey but a wide range of countries."

Turkey said Tuesday it shot down the Russian plane with a missile strike after repeated warnings to the plane that it had flown over its territory.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/politics/obama-francois-hollande-white-house-meeting/index.html

Obama said that Turkey has a right to defend its airspace, but that he also hopes there isn't further escalation between Russia and Turkey.

Obama says Russia isn't just fighting against ISIS, but also moderate rebels and ethnic groups supported by Turkey and other NATO / US allies.

If Russia would just join the US led coalition and just fight ISIS, then no problem. When Russia flies around turkmen mountain, then there's a problem.

edit: those comments by Obama were acutally quite direct, I'm a bit surprised to be honest.

He's flat out saying Turkey has a right to defend itself and its airspace.

He's flat out saying there are ethnicities and moderate rebels that the coalition bloc supports, and that the trouble happens when Russia goes after them, and that Russia ought to just stick to ISIS.

This is exactly what I said, that the problem is Assad is just allies with Russia and Iran and nobody else wants Assad:

"Russia right now is a coalition of two -- Iran and Russia -- supporting Assad," Obama said.

"Russia's the outlier," he added, noting that strikes against moderate opposition fighters "bolster the Assad regime."

[Sixstrings]

CNN breaking news, Pentagon says the Russian fighter jet was in Turkish airspace for "30 seconds or less," violated air space ten times within ten minutes, and ten warnings were given before Turkey shot it down.

President Obama says Turkey has the right to defend itself and its airspace, so that's that.

If a NATO plane ever crosses Russian airspace and they want to come after it and shoot it down then okay, I for one wouldn't blame Russia because everyone should respect airspace and a nation's air force is taking a chance if it rolls itself over another nation's border. That's just how it is. US lost a U2 spyplane over Russia back in the 60s, it got shot down, that sucks, but the Russians were right to do it -- that's how it goes, it was our fault and we took a chance flying over Russia without permission. And in the last year, Russia has been NUMEROUS TIMES flying into nato airspace without permission.

Do you all see that, it goes both ways?

That nobody could complain if a nato plane crossed into russia and they chased back out and shot it down? That's how it seems to me anyhow, people need to respect airspace.

Tv news also reports that Russia lost one marine in an attempt to rescue the pilots.

I do feel bad for those pilots, but Putin shouldn't be doing operations so close to the Turkish border, and #2 Russia should not cross nato airspace.

And it's good when Russia fights ISIS and they deserve credit, but they can't be going up to turkmen mountain too -- the turkmen aren't isis.

edit: and let's not forget, Turkey already shot a drone down, what was that a month or two ago? A Russian drone had been flying in Turkish airspace.

And by the way, for my own views, if this were the US and Russian planes I would hope there would be more tolerance but then even with us there's a limit where the USAF would shoot the plane down wherever it is from.

Turkey has a different standard, but is within their rights. Turkey just says do not cross their airspace, period the end, and Obama is backing Turkey up.

[Shaved Monkey]

The Qatari pipeline would transect Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Turkey on its way to Europe.
The Iranian pipeline would go across Iraq and Syria before dipping undersea across the Mediterannean to Greece.

[Satori]

I guess the CORRUPT ,DUPLICITOUS Erdogan has changed his position ?

Turkey in 2012: ‘Short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack’

http://www.prisonplanet.com/turkey-in-2 ... ttack.html

[AgentR11]

Turkey has a different standard, but is within their rights. Turkey just says do not cross their airspace, period the end, and Obama is backing Turkey up.

So I suppose you wouldn't object if Russia destroys Turkish aircraft that violate Syrian airspace?

Or is Turkey allowed to defend their airspace, but Syria is not?

I'm OK with both.. kinda. I dislike the smarmy way they're trying to dodge the tactic they used to kill the Russian jet. They should be proud, waited for a Russian jet to be lined up to a hard to avoid little protrusion of Turkey into Syria, performed the intercept so that they were ready to fire the missile within the 17 second window that the plane was in Turkish airspace.

That's pretty good execution.
It'll have consequences though.