[frankthetank]

So Russia is free..because they have Syria's permission to be there...to use a S300 or S400 or its fighter jets to take out any incursion Turkish jets might have into Syria?

These borders being redrawn...when and does Syria agree with them (maybe they are using different maps?)...

Shooting down pilots in parachutes is pretty cowardly... you guys make it sound like they were dropping bombs on orphanages and nuns in church...or maybe hospitals full of doctors (you know..like the US using a gunship to vaporize some doctors in Afghanistan).... Maybe they were following the oil that ISIS is selling to Turkey (isn't this all about energy anyways?) up through that area... I read Russia has something like 10 sats on Syria plus drones..they must know what where why and when of just about anything happening there.

Russia will probably shut down tourism to Turkey ($$$) and maybe even turn off the gas (although that goes both ways). I could see a little polonium being brought out..maybe some Iskanders being redirected... I could also see SAMs being deployed all around Syria at some point.

I agree...we need more info before drawing too many conclusions...but i can't see someone like Putin just forgetting this.

The whole country of Syria needs to be divided...Sunnis in one area/Kurds in one area/Shia/alawites in one area...these people are going to be pissed for generations...although with everyone leaving for Europe...and in Turkey/Kuwait..maybe if they can get some border security..they won't be allowed back!

I think what Turkey forgets is that this just gives Putin even more power by his people to escalate things in Syria and bring even more resources in to bomb/level/destroy any group that gets in the way.

[Synapsid]

Frank,

"these people are going to be pissed for generations."

Going to be? Commendable understatement there.

[Cid_Yama]

US doesn't work that way?? The US crosses any international border it sees fit, to accomplish their objectives.

Examples: Drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen. Violating their borders, against the wishes of their governments, followed by protests by their governments, ignored by the US, that continue to kill civilians in their 'suspected terrorists' strikes.

The second invasion of Iraq. (An international war crime)

Initial NATO airstrikes within Syria.

The list goes on.

The Russians are in Syria, their ally, on the invitation of the legitimate government of Syria, to help them against rebels, foreign supplied and supported, attempting to overthrow that government.

Russia, being Syria's ally, there on the invitation of Syria, in support of the Syrian government, has the right to attack any target within Syria's borders. The legitimate, internationally recognized ones, not Erdogan's new ones, resulting from Erdogan's territory grab within Syria.

Right up to the border. Against any target the legitimate government deems.

As a matter of fact, Erdogan's territory grab within Syria is itself an international war crime, and an act of war against a sovereign nation. Syria would be well within it's rights to consider it so.

You either recognize international laws and conventions, or you don't. In this instance, Russia and Syria are well within their rights, according to international law. Turkey is the one in violation.

I can see the pretzel squirming of your brain, Sixstrings, even if you cannot. Trying to force reality to conform to your preconceived notions. Those 'complexities' you complain of are the gray areas that are always there and ignored by those who prefer to think in black and white.

[frankthetank]

Frank,

"these people are going to be pissed for generations."

Going to be? Commendable understatement there.

Yeah..will...given enough time...decades/centuries...10's of thousands of years...an ice age...

-----------------------------------

I believe its just payback for Russia destroying a source of oil ISIS was moving into Turkey.
------------------------------------
Assad isn't innocent..but i do believe you need a monster to control these people in this whole area (see Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Egypt)...i have yet to hear a name for who will or could replace Assad (ISIS?).

[Sixstrings]

I can see the pretzel squirming of your brain, Sixstrings, even if you cannot.

And I can see the kremlin narratives, in yours.

You fail to recognize there are two things going on, one is radical islam and the other is cold war with Russia. It's Putin that started the latter, we never wanted it.

And we Americans would be more tolerant -- to a point -- if Russia were crossing our borders.

But apparently Turkey is not so tolerant and has a stick up somewhere and is prickly about its airspace and borders. So in the interest of world peace I hope Putin doesn't push it too far and I hope the rest of nato can smooth things over but at the end of the day it was Russia that crossed Turkey's border, not the other way around.

P.S. Let's state the fact again, this did not happen to a Russian plane that was fighting ISIS. It was a Russian plane flying around "turkmen mountain" on the other side of syria, nowhere around ISIS.

Putin should give up on Assad:

There's always been a divide between Russia and the West over what to do in Syria. And Moscow and Ankara are essentially on opposite sides in the conflict, with Russia standing behind Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Turkey backing rebel forces fighting to topple him.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/russia-turkey-jet-downed-syria/

Russia should either give up on Assad and work more closely with the allied coalition, OR, Russia has got to get its foreign policy act together and PERSUADE all these governments in the region that are against Assad.

It's on Russia, to get along with all its neighbors. Incidentally, Russia' got problems with every single one of its neighbors right down to cuddly socialists in scandinavia.

I've always said, if people can't even get along with Fins and Swedes and Norwegians, then there's something wrong.

[SeaGypsy]

You just ignore posters here countering your mouthing whatever garbage you see - hear on MSM. Cid is right, you are wrong.

[radon1]

https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw

The general is basically saying that the Turkish planes issued no warnings, and actually crossed the Syrian border itself at some point. There has been a direct communication line established between the Russian and Turkish military centers, but the Turkish did not use it.

He is saying that according to the "data of objective control", the Russian plane did not cross the border.

He is also saying that the bombers will now be escorted by fighter jets; that Latakia's air defense will be beefed up with a battleship carrying a seaborne analogue of S-300, and every target presenting a potential danger will be eliminated; and that all the contacts in place between the Russian and Turkish military will cease.

[dissident]

The following is a video of what actually went down in the radar record. Note that the F16 was loitering waiting to attack the Russian jet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... cENeRldkW4

Putin needs to make the pain for these ISIS sponsors prolonged and painful. Nothing like attacking Turkish military targets inside Turkey. Pure economic clamp down starting with cutting off the natural gas and stopping the 3 million Russian tourists per year and kicking all Turkish corporations out of Russia. Turkey does not need a modern economy, it needs a medieval theocratic toilet like the ISIS "revolutionaries" it is sponsoring.

[dissident]

Looks like Pooty got his titty twisted, better put on a shirt.

Typical American meathead you are. You enjoy seeing crimes committed against your deemed enemies and whinge and bitch when your soldiers die in imperial wars. Bloody hypocrite.

[Cog]

LOL go ahead and attack Turkey and see what happens. Russia's control over their little area in Syria is very tenuous. The Russian military is 3rd rate and is barely better than the rebels they are bombing. Most likely the Russian pilots were drunk and had no clue where the Turkish border was. Go up against the Turkish AF and ground forces and you better be ready to bring down the entire Russian Army and Air force.

Putin should not mess with people who can give him a very bloody nose in a several different ways.

[Sixstrings]

You just ignore posters here countering your mouthing whatever garbage you see - hear on MSM. Cid is right, you are wrong.

Actually, it is disappointing. Russia was doing a lot to defeat ISIS there at the end, and I thought a bit of cold war competition was good. I noticed how the US coalition stepped it up, I posted an article about how "there's almost a competition between the Russian and US coalitions of who can fight ISIS more."

But just as Obama says, Russia is primarily there to fight all enemies of Assad.

Which includes things like ethnic turks, and then Russia starts doing ops right up on the Turkish border so wtf?

The whole thing is a crazy mess and bad idea, you can't have two coalitions in the same spot, that don't talk to each other, and the Russian coalition is flying up on the other coalition's national borders. And across them.

About the Russian coalition -- it's just Iran and Assad that's in it.

SG, this ain't easy stuff.

I'm an open thinker, what should the West do? Ditch turkey? And the sunni arab states? Can we throw all them out and ally with Russia and Iran? But then the problem is that the Iranians want to wipe Israel out, and they fund Hezbollah which attacks Israelis and rocket attacks them.

It's complex stuff, maybe Putin shouldn't stir the pot and make a bigger mess. If they really just cared about ISIS then obviously the West has not stopped them from fighting ISIS -- Russia could do just that, AND THEN COMPROMISE ON ASSAD AND TAKE A DEAL THAT'S ACCEPTABLE TO TURKEY AND ALL THOSE ARAB COUNTRIES OVER THERE.

[Outcast_Searcher]

They should be proud, waited for a Russian jet to be lined up to a hard to avoid little protrusion of Turkey into Syria, performed the intercept so that they were ready to fire the missile within the 17 second window that the plane was in Turkish airspace.

That's pretty good execution.
It'll have consequences though.

So in your version you're just going to completely ignore the 10 warnings and the fact that the Turkish airspace was violated TEN times before the Russian fighter jet was shot down?

Yeah, that's reasonable.

[radon1]

starting with cutting off the natural gas and stopping the 3 million Russian tourists per year and kicking all Turkish corporations out of Russia.

He cannot cut off gas, Turkey is a big customer, but he can kick off the businesses, they don't produce anything special anyway. The tourists are already cancelling the visits themselves. About 20% of outstanding tours have been cancelled within a span of several hours. This didn't happen after the Egypt's disaster by the way.

[dissident]

http://www.azatutyun.mobi/a/27299112.ht ... um=twitter

Another example of Turkey's routine military air space violations. Following Erdo-turd's precedent all these aircraft need to be shot down.

[dissident]

starting with cutting off the natural gas and stopping the 3 million Russian tourists per year and kicking all Turkish corporations out of Russia.

He cannot cut off gas, Turkey is a big customer, but he can kick off the businesses, they don't produce anything special anyway. The tourists are already cancelling the visits themselves. About 20% of outstanding tours have been cancelled within a span of several hours. This didn't happen after the Egypt's disaster by the way.

The amount of gas sold to Turkey is of no significance. It is only "up to" 6 bcm per year.

[radon1]

ignore the 10 warnings

Can anyone produce evidence of what those "10 warnings" constituted exactly? Did they wave their hands 10 times?

The MoD representative says that no evidence of warnings has been identified.

[AgentR11]

"ten warnings" and the flight path even the Turks displayed don't match up. There simply wasn't that much time involve to say "warning" 10 times. Someone calc'ed it as about 17 seconds over Turkish airspace, using Turkey's map.

Also, I don't believe either Russian or Turkish reports, but using the Turkish map grants them the largest possible excuse. Using that map, I can only come to the conclusion that they had decided to take that shot the instant the Russian jet transgressed. Which I suppose they have a "right" to do. On that note, Syria now also has a right to (via their Russian cohorts) to sit on the trigger of an air defense system, and fire it the second a Turkish jet crosses into Syria, which they occasionally do.

In the end, Turkey did not enhance the safety of those Turkmen villages (which will likely get carpet bombed into oblivion now), and most certainly cost themselves hundreds of millions in tourist revenue, as well as cost them the pipeline they could have made some bucks from, and cost them all the stolen oil they were slurping from ISIS sales. It was an idiotic thing to do.

This isn't about "right" and "wrong" Its about "stupid" and "wise".

And Turkey today really put a new high mark on the stupid meter.

[AgentR11]

starting with cutting off the natural gas and stopping the 3 million Russian tourists per year and kicking all Turkish corporations out of Russia.

He cannot cut off gas, Turkey is a big customer, but he can kick off the businesses, they don't produce anything special anyway. The tourists are already cancelling the visits themselves. About 20% of outstanding tours have been cancelled within a span of several hours. This didn't happen after the Egypt's disaster by the way.

No reason to cut off gas, gas is revenue into Russia. That is good. Tourism to Turkey is revenue OUT of Russia, and that is bad. Want to hurt Turkey, sell them lots more gas, and destroy their tourism and ISIS-oil trade.

[dissident]

"ten warnings" and the flight path even the Turks displayed don't match up. There simply wasn't that much time involve to say "warning" 10 times. Someone calc'ed it as about 17 seconds over Turkish airspace, using Turkey's map.

Also, I don't believe either Russian or Turkish reports, but using the Turkish map grants them the largest possible excuse. Using that map, I can only come to the conclusion that they had decided to take that shot the instant the Russian jet transgressed. Which I suppose they have a "right" to do. On that note, Syria now also has a right to (via their Russian cohorts) to sit on the trigger of an air defense system, and fire it the second a Turkish jet crosses into Syria, which they occasionally do.

In the end, Turkey did not enhance the safety of those Turkmen villages (which will likely get carpet bombed into oblivion now), and most certainly cost themselves hundreds of millions in tourist revenue, as well as cost them the pipeline they could have made some bucks from, and cost them all the stolen oil they were slurping from ISIS sales. It was an idiotic thing to do.

This isn't about "right" and "wrong" Its about "stupid" and "wise".

And Turkey today really put a new high mark on the stupid meter.

The Russian jet crashed 4 km inside Syria. It was shot down over Syria. Turkey does not have the right to shoot down any aircraft over foreign air space. It at most has the "right" to shoot one down over its own territory.

[dissident]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Turk ... thern_Iraq

Russia needs to make sure that Turkey never again makes such invasions of Iraq and Syria. It can do this quite effectively. It also needs to start backing Kurds like Turkey backs ISIS.