[careinke]

As I understand ground radar such as the Patriot system or military aircraft radar, when it hits a airplane it triggers a response from the airplanes transponder. This is the IFF system. In military applications, it will come back as unknown, neutral, or friendly. If things are done right the aircraft and the ground based missile batteries will all have the same codes so you don't shoot down a friendly plane. Transponders can also be turned off so you get no return ping. The radar can detect the aircraft but other than heading, speed, altitude and a rough size, you won't know if it was friendly or not.

COG not bad. However the IFF system is not triggered by the RADAR it is triggered by another system collocated with the RADAR. It can be run with or without the RADAR working.

In a former life, I was an AWACS Mission Crew Commander. I usually do not comment on this stuff because I have no idea what is still classified or not. But the IFF system you described is not. I also do not follow military hardware anymore, as I said it was a former life.

[ROCKMAN]

A quick poll. Scenario: a Russian aircraft is flying a mission over Syria but close to the Turk border. The Turk put up aircraft that comes within targeting range of the Russian aircraft. The question...yes or no: would the Russian use the S-400's to immediately take out the Turk aircraft? Remember how rapid modern warfare is today: this entire scenario could play out in just minutes. No time for the S-400 crew to check with command. Which wouldn't be necessary anyway because it's safe to assume the rules of engagement have already been modified. IOW if Putin has given orders to take out any Turk aircraft that MIGHT target a Russian aircraft that missile commander knows that if he hesitates his career (and maybe his life) is over.

First blood has been spilled between the Russians and the Turks. We have gone well beyond the “what if” stage IMHO. Whether declared or not the Russians and the Turks are at war IMHO.

[radon1]

Yes.

The pilots should have asked their generals by now "What now?", and the generals should have asked Pu by now "What now?", and Pu would have responded "What is your opinion?". -- "Well..."

The pilots need confidence before they go for sorties.

In addition, the general at the MoD press conference told unambiguously that any potential danger will be eliminated.

[Keith_McClary]

They're obviously citing military officials since they state the US military is their source. Just because they don't SAY "military officials" doesn't mean anything, except perhaps to the conspiracy crowd.

So allies in NATO couldn't share information, even after the fact? So things like radios and audio recorders don't exist in the 21st century?

Acting like the US military couldn't know this is pretty myopic, don't you think?

I'm not saying the US military knows everything or chooses to share everything they know, but acting like it's a stretch that the US military could know about ten radio messages from a NATO ally a day after the events, given current technology is more than a little silly.

Is the US saying that officially/publicly? We are accustomed to governments saying one thing publicly while planting another story in their preferred media.
The US mil had many different stories about the Kunduz hospital bombing.

[AgentR11]

Example of what happens when you shoot down a Russian bomber...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSlwrlHLlnE

I'm pretty sure Turkey lost more than a couple of their special revolutionary jihadis there.. Pretty good bet I think.

[Plantagenet]

First blood has been spilled between the Russians and the Turks. We have gone well beyond the “what if” stage IMHO. Whether declared or not the Russians and the Turks are at war IMHO.

Turkey is a NATO member. If Russia responds to the Turkish provocation and starts a war with Turkey, then they'll have the US and the rest of NATO to deal with was well.


Obama backed up Turkey after they shot down the Russian plane.

[careinke]

I don't think Turkey will put itself in a position to test that scenario.

[Plantagenet]

I don't think Turkey will put itself in a position to test that scenario.

TRUE, but Turkey can't control how Russia responds to their military provocation. What happens next is up to Russia.

[frankthetank]

US not liking the S400

Washington (AFP) - Russia's announcement it is deploying its most hi-tech air defense system to its base in Syria is raising "significant concerns" for the US military, a US official said Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-concerns-over- ... 02351.html

"It's a capable weapons system that poses a significant threat to anyone," a US official speaking on condition of anonymity told AFP. "There are significant concerns related to air operations in Syria."

Like i said earlier...the winners here are the MIC who get to sell more and more and more weapons.

[AgentR11]

Turkey is a NATO member. If Russia responds to the Turkish provocation and starts a war with Turkey, then they'll have the US and the rest of NATO to deal with was well.

Really won't e much "dealing" to be had.

We utterly outclass them conventionally.
If Russia kills a Turkish jet, and Turkey invokes Art 5
Then we trade nukes or NATO dissolves.

There is no scenario anywhere except in hollywood, where the Russians take a beating and then step back. They'll be all in. Every time they've fought in the history of Russia, they've been all in. And in this situation, there's really no reason not to launch all, once you decide to launch one.

EOT.

[Subjectivist]

First blood has been spilled between the Russians and the Turks. We have gone well beyond the “what if” stage IMHO. Whether declared or not the Russians and the Turks are at war IMHO.

Turkey is a NATO member. If Russia responds to the Turkish provocation and starts a war with Turkey, then they'll have the US and the rest of NATO to deal with was well.
Obama backed up Turkey after they shot down the Russian plane.

Our President has been bombing ISIL into oblivion for over a year, so if he makes the same kind of progress with Russia something will happe about December 2016 as he is leaving office.

[Plantagenet]

Our President has been bombing ISIL into oblivion for over a year, so if he makes the same kind of progress with Russia something will happe about December 2016 as he is leaving office.

Absolutely right. Thats been the plan for Syria all along anyway--- Kick the can down the road.

[Outcast_Searcher]

They're obviously citing military officials since they state the US military is their source. Just because they don't SAY "military officials" doesn't mean anything, except perhaps to the conspiracy crowd.

So allies in NATO couldn't share information, even after the fact? So things like radios and audio recorders don't exist in the 21st century?

Acting like the US military couldn't know this is pretty myopic, don't you think?

I'm not saying the US military knows everything or chooses to share everything they know, but acting like it's a stretch that the US military could know about ten radio messages from a NATO ally a day after the events, given current technology is more than a little silly.

Is the US saying that officially/publicly? We are accustomed to governments saying one thing publicly while planting another story in their preferred media.
The US mil had many different stories about the Kunduz hospital bombing.

If you have EVIDENCE to support your implication that the US military is lying or that the NYT is lying, please feel free to share.

Until then, feel free to engage in empty speculation.

[ROCKMAN]

Plant - The POTUS backing up the Turks with words won't stop an S-400 from sliding up a Turkish pilot's 6. As others have offered: is any NATO member, including the US, going to engage Russia in conventional war if the Russians start shooting down Turk jets? I can think of a few that wouldn't do so if some of their own jets were shot down.

[Plantagenet]

Plant - is any NATO member, including the US, going to engage Russia in conventional war if the Russians start shooting down Turk jets? I can think of a few that wouldn't do so if some of their own jets were shot down.

Obama has always said the US would honor its NATO commitment and come to the aid of any member state that is attacked by Russia or any other country.

Personally I expect Putin to back down and not retaliate against Turkey because of his fear of NATO.

[AgentR11]

Plant..... you're talking about a country that burned half its inhabited land area to the ground itself, in order to kill an invading army by starvation.

There is no 'fear' of NATO.
None.
Friggin people living in a fantasy world of Russians restrained in their actions because one of their leaders is somehow going to fear civilians dying.
We're so screwed.

[Sixstrings]

China's tacking neutral, says it doesn't want involved in others' quarrels, and that Russia and Turkey are both telling different stories and their issues between each other run deeper than just a border violation. And that they should talk to each other.

China to stay on the sidelines in Turkey-Russia tensions

“China will urge both sides to maintain restraint and solve the disputes through negotiation, but it has no interest in becoming a mediator and getting entangled in others’ disputes,” Jia said. “The two countries are telling different stories … What they are fighting about is far more complicated than an airspace violation.”
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1883428/china-stay-sidelines-turkey-russia-tensions

If things ever got more serious, presumably and hopefully China would weigh in more. Despite the south china sea stuff and pacific geopolitics, China's interest is much like the old USSR -- China needs *stability*. That's how the latter USSR was, it was a mature empire and didn't need a bunch of crazy sh*t starting up so it's the same thing with China. Billion+ people, they've got business to do and everyone wants an extra car in the driveway and a mcmansion and they don't want any wars getting in the way of that.

Whereas smaller powers are on the rise -- they're gamblers, risk takers.

So anyhow, hopefully if things got serious China would weigh in at that point and be a moderating influence on Russia and an ultimate hedge on Russia going too far.

[AgentR11]

No. China and Russia have a very simple, very effective understanding. China does not meddle in what Russia does on its European border, and Russia does not meddle in what China does on their Pacific coast. In Central Asia their policy objective are essentially identical, so they wouldn't even notice if the other was meddling, because the meddling would be doing exactly what they want each other to be doing.

So no, China will not weigh in; period. Russia and Turkey could get into a hot war, and the most you'd get out of China would be a knock on the wall with a "can yall hold it down?"

[Sixstrings]

No. China and Russia have a very simple, very effective understanding. China does not meddle in what Russia does on its European border, and Russia does not meddle in what China does on their Pacific coast.

Hmmm, I disagree. Notice the tone. They say "the two countries." It's very neutral and objective and not taking a side -- that both countries "are telling different stories." That's a bit of a knock on Russia actually. And really the Chinese are right, it seems that way to me too, Turkey and Russia are both telling stories to varying degrees.

And then, China says what's really the truth of it, that Russia and Turkey have deeper issues besides the border.

The whole thing was very neutral and matter of fact and telling it how it is and not taking Russia's side.

China's #1 interest is in stability, they won't ever side with Russia if they know Russia's part of rocking a boat too and has equal blame.

So no, China will not weigh in; period. Russia and Turkey could get into a hot war, and the most you'd get out of China would be a knock on the wall with a "can yall hold it down?"

I disagree. Prospect of serious war is very much against Chinese interests. China never wants to lose all the money it has in the global system and things spiral out to Russia-NATO war, all just because maybe Putin wants another square mile in the Ukraine or over a fight about turkmen in Syria.

And to be fair to Russia, I think ultimately they do have a cool head and realize how serious escalating conflict with nato would be. And what NATO always has to keep in mind is offering exit options for Russia so they never have to choose conflict, and then offer Russia face-saving. Important thing is to just never back a bear into the corner.

I noticed Radon seemed surprised at the Turkish FM's apology. I'm not surprised, I assume the rest of NATO told Turkey to apologize. It's a face saving thing, to show some respect. To diffuse Putin thinking he needs to go do something now, it's better to apologize and then hopefully Russia knows how serious this is and maybe behind the scenes Lavrov will finally cut a deal and then NATO needs to take measures as well, to prevent another Turkey incident.