[ROCKMAN]

“Nothing wrong with massing your tanks on your side of the border. Gives Putin something to think about.” I’m sure it does…like thinking if I, Putin, is going to have to engage that Turk armor it would be better to do so while they are massed together and not expecting an attack. A rather basic and obvious tactical strategy that has been used for many decades. Remember Pearl Harbor…it is almost 7 December, isn’t it? LOL. And if Putin does take out the Turk armor on their side of the border what is the US/NATO going to do: declare war of Russia and attack them or issue a very strongly worded response? LOL. I suspect many here aren't old enough to understand how situations develop once the politicians decide that war is a viable option...whether it really is or not. Might want to get a visual by wandering down that black wall with 60,000 names scratched on it.

As far as what type of tanks the Turks can field it really doesn’t matter. Check with the folks at Janes: all armor is very susceptible to air attack….even the best that the US has. One can go search the net for pics of the Road of Death with all the Republican Guard armor smoldering. Putin isn’t going to put his armor against the Turks: he doesn’t have any in theater as far as I know. And not much more difficult to target an unsupported tank then an unsupported tank truck. It has been established long ago: tanks without infantry or air support are nothing more than rolling steel coffins. And that includes oil tank trucks now. LOL.

[AgentR11]

Putin isn’t going to put his armor against the Turks: he doesn’t have any in theater as far as I know.

He has some T90's there that are with Russian contract forces, not to mention the bajillion older tanks he's pumping into SAA. There's a reason those LST's and roro's are running laps between Tartus and Novosyweirdrussianendinggoeshere.

Putin also has some "Alligator" helicopters, basically an Apache kind of thing (yes, yes, of course Apache's are better, blah blah); anti-armor role; as well as of course air superiority for the time being.

There is something to consider here; if Russia were to attack the tanks on the Turkish side, it'd enable a legit invocation of Art 5; but if Turkey pushed into Syria, and then got obliterated by Russian air; Art 5 would not come into play. That's just a NATO country engaging in combat operations for their own national objectives. Another thing to consider, is that if Turkey invades Syria East of Allepo; Putin&Assad might just not really care. Could even work out pretty well for them in the long term. Partition is the right answer, but no one wants to actually admit it; but if it happened defacto on the ground anyway, I doubt many would get all that worked up over it. If they go that route, the Turks and Russians need to deescalate their level an anxiety; but Putin's fallen into this trap of demanding an apology; its a kinda black hole that you can't get out of once you go there; so that could be difficult.

And.. fwiw, today a clever camera dude snapped an image of an SU34 carrying air-to-air missile short & medium range over Syria. Russia is flying in Syria, right up to the border, and bombing stuff. Turkey isn't doing anything other than whining about target selections that include bakeries with enough explosives to outfit a battalion... Not sure how you make bread out of explosives... but, Turks... what can you say. They'll eat anything! lol. jk jk

And yes, we're better at flying and everything else. But like I said, if Turkey takes a shot at a Russian jet, they DO NOT have to fire back at the plane that took the shot. Any target the Russians deem appropriate can be the recipient of the response; that would include some very expensive electronic warfare gear Turkey has parked near the border, positions well know, or an electronic surveillance plane, or any other really pricey piece of hardware.

Thus far, Turkey has not taken another shot. But Russia has bombed a bunch of "turkoman" villagers/freedom-fighters/terrorists/rebels/separatists...

Shooting that bomber was a legal kill, and it was absolutely the dumbest move Erdogan could possibly have made.

[Tanada]

Still having those Walter Mitty moments are we?

How many tanks, of any kind, do the Russians have in Syria?

The Russian's grasp, of how tenuous their hold is in Syria, is matched only by your grasp of military matters. Putin has recklessly pursued a path which is going to bite him.

The US Army had a whole bunch of tanks in KSA and Kuwait before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, but the vast majority of Iraqi tanks killed died from air attack, not armor vs armor.

If Turkey throws every tank they own into the fight assuming they are all running and the crews are available they have 3,774 tanks. For most of the length of the Syria/Turkey border the Russians have absolute air superiority, so the moment the first Turkish tank crosses the border every tank in the area becomes a target. So long as Turkey stays on their side and doesn't start shooting over the line with tanks or artillery it is likely things will not escalate. After all North Korea and South Korea both have equipment on or near the DMZ but have not charged over the line to reignite the war there.

At this moment the ball is in Erdogan's court, if he keeps his cool things will calm down. If Erdogan decides to go for broke and sends a full fledged attack over the border then Russia will be free to use up a bunch of their old anti-tank munitions to smash every unit on both sides of the border.

The concept is nothing new, if the enemy has forces that could move to attack range rapidly they are a threat. For a tank that moves at 40 kph that is a buffer zone of at least 80 kilometers.

So long as Russia has air superiority, or believes they do, they don't need a lot of tanks to do a lot of damage to the collection Turkey is massing on the border.

[AgentR11]

The Russian's grasp, of how tenuous their hold is in Syria, is matched only by your grasp of military matters. Putin has recklessly pursued a path which is going to bite him.

I don't see how it can bite him; all possible outcomes are net positive for Russia; some better than others; but there's really no downside. Tartus was very important before they took Crimea; now its just "good"; but its loss wouldn't do much. He's had a chance to demonstrate the functionality of most of the weapon systems they export. He's in a position to demonstrate the S300/S400's against top end aircraft and systems; if we give him the opportunity. In Crimea, he's got three fresh corvettes stuffed to the gills with cruise missiles (which could be nuclear) that say Sevastopol shall not be recaptured under any acceptable cost; and high end land based surface-to-surface "bastion", there as well.

We've provided him a live-fire arms show. And so far, they've put on a fine demonstration. Weapons appear to work as designed, are cost effective, and are being used to support a successful ground campaign against forces backed by NATO. That is called... KA_CHING.

I'm hoping we don't give him an opportunity to demo S300s & S400s... If they work as advertised, Iran and China will spare no expense buying the things. Maybe we can cheat and get him to fire them at a drone while we listen, that'd be good for us, and not much of an advertisement.

[Cog]

Where are you getting that the Russians have air superiority? Maybe when you look at the entire country of Russia but not when you look at what Turkey has versus what Russia has that air base in Syria. A few squadrons at most? Hard numbers are hard to come by.

Turkey also has attack helicopters and knows how to attack tanks with aircraft. The illusion exists that Russia is some sort of military monster. The truth is far different.

[davep]

Where are you getting that the Russians have air superiority?

They potentially have the means to shoot anything down that violates Syrian airspace. And they have the right to be there.

This interesting article explains the changing dynamic since the Turks stupidly shot down the Russian plane http://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/europe/2015/11/russia-hits-turkey-changing-syria-game-151129172933416.html

...Losing control of the northern countryside of Aleppo would be a setback for the opposition. Turkey, too, would lose influence.

But Russian President Vladimir Putin seems to be eyeing an even bigger victory. He called on the Assad government and the political wing of the YPG to unite. This has still not happened - at least not officially.

But Syrian Kurdish officials have said they are ready to work with anyone fighting ISIL, and anyone who works for a united, secular and democratic Syria.

Such an alliance would change the battlefield and the balance of power on the ground.

[ROCKMAN]

Agent - I knew such tanks were in Syria but are they manned by Russians or the Syrian army? MY impression was that those re Syrian units for the most part. And hit them on which side of the border? Maybe he's not concerned about NATO. We do know he doesn't give a sh* about world/UN opinion...just saw that in the Crimea. In fact given the stories about Putin's concern/paranoia about NATO he might like the idea of provoking an Art 5 to see how NATO might respond. And again a simple question: if the Turks call Art 5 and there are Russian jets in the airspace will Germany/France/the USA/etc. launch an attack on the Russia? Is the US 6th Fleet going to fire at the Russian fleet an get a test of just how good their anti-missile defense systems work...especially on those multi-billion carriers?

As far as air superiority over Syria I assume that's based upon Russia's capability to knock any Turk aircraft out of the sky with their S400's pretty much whenever they want to. But who knows would do and are able to do in a real shooting war in that part of the world. That's why we have horse races: only one way to know for sure has the fight in them, right? After wasn't that one of the benefits of the US blowing the sh*t out of Iraq...twice? Again I'm not predicting what Putin will or won't do. But years ago a fair bit of the world didn't think the US would go to war with any ME country. Especially one that wasn't attacking Americans.

[Tanada]

Where are you getting that the Russians have air superiority? Maybe when you look at the entire country of Russia but not when you look at what Turkey has versus what Russia has that air base in Syria. A few squadrons at most? Hard numbers are hard to come by.

Turkey also has attack helicopters and knows how to attack tanks with aircraft. The illusion exists that Russia is some sort of military monster. The truth is far different.

Russia has had a reputation for designing and building the very best anti air defense systems on Earth since the late 1970's. You might not believe in them but the S300 air defense net and the S400 that was designed to be even more effect would easily wipe any Turkish helicopters off the map long before they could do serious damage to the Syrian Army tanks if they chose to start something. Would it be expensive for Russia? Sure in one sense because once the gloves come off they believe in fighting to win, not to achieve some political talking point. If something kicks off, which is just an if, Russia can clear the airspace over Syria of anything not positively identified as Russian, Syrian or Iranian within an hour or so.

You don't have to believe me if you don't want to and you can rah rah the USA all you want, but the facts on the ground are they have anti air capability deployed right now in Syria and we do not. Pretending otherwise is simply foolish. Turkey has an Army that has been on garrison duty for basically the last 40 years, they don't spend a lot of money training and have not actually had a real fight in decades. How many of those Turkish anti armor helicopters did they deploy to Iraq and how many of them actually took a shot at anything in combat? How many of their tanks have been outside of the borders of their country since the day they arrived in the country from North America and Europe?

Russia does not have the best military on the planet, but what they do have they train hard and keep up to date on strategy and tactics. They do have the best anti air net anywhere IMO, but even if it is #2 compared to the USA it is extremely effective. Iran is seen as being backward by many people, but they have a very loyal and willing to fight to the last man trained military force that is supplying men and materials to help Assad. We on the other hand have 50 special forces guys and a bunch of UAV's flying around.

We walked all over Iraq twice, how did we do that? Well they did not have any outside backing so the USN and USAF aircraft were able to take apart their air defense net piece by piece over a period of weeks, and then bomb and strafe targets to our hearts content because we had total undisputed air superiority. If we or Turkey decided to play in Syria on a large scale the air superiority is on the other side of the game. Secondly Syria is not going it alone like Saddam made the mistake of doing, they have both Russia and Iran actively supporting them. Turkey would also not be going it alone depending on how NATO reacts to whatever hostility as it developed, which is what makes this such a dangerous situation. You don't play with matches while wading in ankle deep gasoline if you want to live a long healthy and peaceful life.

[AgentR11]

Where are you getting that the Russians have air superiority? Maybe when you look at the entire country of Russia but not when you look at what Turkey has versus what Russia has that air base in Syria. A few squadrons at most? Hard numbers are hard to come by.

Russian air defense is NOT dependent upon the planes they put up; though they help. Its dependent upon the number of planes they can bring down from the ground; and with what they have positioned there, they can bring down a large number close to Latakia where their operation is; they could probably drop somewhere around 50 NATO aircraft a bit further out; and singles all the way well past the Turkish border.

NATO can achieve air superiority if it wished. Those costs would be about 50-75 destroyed aircraft, 2-16 sunk ships, and a good sized batch of cruise missiles; enough to overwhelm the Pantstir units they have doing point defense. Russia would lose most or all the aircraft they have there, probably a bit more than 100; radar and support gear for the S400/panstirs, the Mosckva, which with its age I'm not sure is a cost to have it blown up as long as it gets its weapons away and sinks somewhere that Russia doesn't have to clean up. Maybe a sub or few if they took the opportunity to try and sink a carrier; there's a bit of modern armor there, but most is old stuff that'd be left to rust away in a warehouse if it weren't in Syria...

On the sub thing; they have attack subs we can't hear; but are there any in the med that haven't been tagged by transiting the Bosphorus? Unknown and unknowable... Till a carrier is on the bottom.. They've certainly had enough time to bring one around from the White Sea if they were of a mind to.

Turkey also has attack helicopters and knows how to attack tanks with aircraft. The illusion exists that Russia is some sort of military monster. The truth is far different.

Blah blah Russia sucks, nato wins...blah blah. Of course NATO wins. Sheesh.

You completely miss the point.

Victory is meaningless there. COST is the only thing relevant. There's nothing there to "win". Its about as meaningful as putting a Russian flag on a beach in Galveston, and stomping on it. Woohooo, we beat Russia. eye-roll.

How much are you willing to spend to remove Assad?; because that's what this is about.

ROCKMAN
I think most of their tanks there are run by SAA; but I think the Russians have a few (5-10) T90s that are operated by their personnel, probably for security, closer to their base.

[Cog]

If the Syrians are running T-72's, and I suspect they are, they are no match for a Leopard 2. In both Gulf Wars, the M-1 Abrams achieved very good success at long range against the T-72's that Saddam was using. In fact, if I am not mistaken Iraqi armor only got a few mobility kills against us. That was with their Republican Guard units when Schwarzkopf did his big end run around Kuwait. We did destroy most of their's from the air but there were some huge tank battles between the two forces.

Even the early gen Leopard 2's have very good armor, stabilized turrets, and a 120mm gun. More than enough to take on Syrian armor.

[Subjectivist]

If the Syrians are running T-72's, and I suspect they are, they are no match for a Leopard 2. In both Gulf Wars, the M-1 Abrams achieved very good success at long range against the T-72's that Saddam was using. In fact, if I am not mistaken Iraqi armor only got a few mobility kills against us. That was with their Republican Guard units when Schwarzkopf did his big end run around Kuwait. We did destroy most of their's from the air but there were some huge tank battles between the two forces.

Even the early gen Leopard 2's have very good armor, stabilized turrets, and a 120mm gun. More than enough to take on Syrian armor.

If you give a 17 year old recruit and a 27 year old experienced sergeant each a tank I would bet on the sergeant winning no matter which had the Leopard and which had the T-72. YMMV but training and experience are vital, not just equipment.

[Cog]

I would definitely agree. Regardless of the tank, the more experienced gunner will almost always win an tank engagement. How good are the Turks compared to the Syrians? Not a clue.

[Cid_Yama]

Cog, still displaying your ignorance, I see. No reason to change your meme just because you have been shown evidence to the contrary.

2000 Cuban armored crews, just trained in Russia on the T-90A, have arrived in Syria. About 20 T-90As have arrived in Syria so far, but Russia continues to fly in more daily. Those that have arrived so far have been deployed in the north at airbases and the naval base in Latakia.

Syria has ~1500 T-72s, all upgraded by Russia. In all, Syria has over 9000 armored vehicles, almost 4000 of them tanks.

From mid-October:

Russia has deployed a mix of upgraded Soviet aircraft and the latest and greatest in Russian aviation, totaling 12 Su-24M2s, 12 Su-25SMs and Su-25 UBMs, four Su-30SMs, and six Su-34s. The bulk of this force is made up of tactical bombers and ground attack aircraft, with Su-30SM multirole fighters providing air cover, presumably against any other air force in the region. The operational tempo has been moderate, starting at 20 sorties per day and increasing to over 60 per day now that ground operations are under way. Indeed, there was a spike of Russian airstrikes last week, with perhaps as many as 400 sorties carried out, but the rate appears to be slowing down again. The airstrikes were focused on known fixed targets at the outset and sought to destroy weapons caches and command and control points. In the first week, Russia targeted equipment the rebels captured from Assad’s forces to soften up the opposition ahead of the Syrian offensive. Since then, the effort has transitioned to direct air support for a ground offensive launched by Syrian forces in Latakia and Hama. Russia’s wing of Mi-24P helicopters is also engaged, strafing enemy positions at low altitude while firing off flares to avoid being hit by man portable surface-to-air missiles.

This bombing campaign has employed an array of guided and unguided weaponry. While Russia has deployed some precision-guided munitions, such as the KAB-500S GPS/GLONASS-guided bomb or the Kh-25ML laser-guided missile, the bulk of the munitions are unguided gravity bombs and high-fragmentation bombs of the OFAB 250-270 variety. These unguided munitions are supplemented by BETAB-M bunker busting munitions against buildings and RBK-500-SPBE-D cluster munitions against enemy vehicles and tanks. While such bombing from medium altitude is fraught with inaccuracies, Russia’s air force is largely going after rural targets and fixed structures with a targeting approach that can be summarized as “close enough.”

The Russian Air Force appears to be conducting a relatively economical bombing campaign by using modernized targeting equipment with older munitions while selectively combat testing its latest aircraft and precision-guided munitions.

In addition to its aerial assets in Syria, Russia deployed a Pantsir-S1 air defense system, around a dozen tanks (allegedly the T-90A), and naval infantry. Supposedly as many as 1700 military personnel are now in Tartus to expand the base and rebuild its pier, which remains more a floating dock than a real port. Such expansions were being discussed as far back as 2010, but never implemented. In time, Russia may be able to dock ships from its surface fleet there. While the tanks and infantry appear detailed to base defense, Russian artillery and helicopters are engaged in supporting the ground offensive. Meanwhile, there is supposed work to further expand Russia’s military presence at military complexes in Al-Sansobar and Istamo, although these expansions seem intended to service displaced Syrian units instead. There is no significant Russian activity at either base.

Led by the Black Sea Fleet, Russia’s Mediterranean squadron is providing extended air defense off the Syrian coast. This squadron consists of roughly ten ships on rotation, most of which are landing, support, or intelligence vessels, along with four surface combatants. Though antiquated, the lone Slava-class missile cruiser Moskva provides the bulk of the firepower and capability of this fleet, including a naval variant of the S-300 air defense system.

It is rumored that the T-90 currently in Syria are actually the modernized T-90SM.

Uralvagonzavod chief Oleg Sienko told Rossiyskaya Gazeta government newspaper on Friday that Russia recently tested the modernised T-90SM model in “an Arab country” and plans to export it to the region.

Russia is also supplying 300mm upgraded Smersch multiple rocket launchers to Syria.

[davep]

Does anyone really see a tank battle occurring between Syrian and Turkish forces? If it's in Syria it won't be the tanks that win it. And I can't see Syria invading Turkey any time soon.

[Cid_Yama]

Satellite photos taken in mid-September and obtained by IHS Jane's show Russian forces developing two additional military facilities near Syria's Mediterranean coast, Rob Munks, editor of IHS Jane's Intelligence Review, said on Tuesday.

Munks said the previously undisclosed work was taking place at a weapons storage facility and a military base north of Latakia, suggesting Russia is preparing to place troops at both locations.

Munks told Reuters one of the sites was located about 4 miles (7 km) north of Latakia and the second was 2 miles (3 km) west of that. The images showed construction of new buildings and grading of terrain, as well as the presence of new tents typically used by Russian military units.

One of the facilities is adjacent to a surface-to-air missile site, Munks added.

link

[Cid_Yama]

Davep, It appears that Russia has taken over the responsibility for rebuilding Syria's degraded military. And they are supplying some top of the line stuff. Meaning they intend to stay. That foothold in the Middle East stuff works both ways.

Surely Washington sees the writing on the wall and throwing fits behind closed doors.

Turkey suspended its flights over Syria as part of its partnership with the US for air strikes against the Islamic State. Ankara decided to avoid the risk of being shot down by the highly advanced Russian S-300 and S-400 anti-air missile systems newly deployed to Syria.

Since Wednesday night, Nov. 25, Russian heavy bombers and warplanes have been hitting every Turkish vehicle moving or stationary inside Syria.

They bombed the Bab al-Hawa border crossing, located on the Turkey-Syria frontier, as well trailers and tractors parked in an area belonging to the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation, on the Syrian side of the border.

It was this group (a terrorist association in disguise) that five years ago organized a flotilla to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip. The lead-ship the Marmora was boarded by Israeli troops and 12 “aid workers” were killed in a clash, an incident that sparked a major clash between Ankara and Jerusalem. Erdogan then insisted he had never heard of the organization although their strong links were uncovered.

Putin has made no allegations. He simply sent his bombers to destroy the organization's vehicles and plough up their parking area on the Syrian side of the border. He also refuses to take calls from Erdogan.

All these circumstances are features of a very active war waged between the two countries - albeit on Syrian soil - since Turkish warplanes downed the Russian Su-24.

In addition to punishing the Turkish leader, Russia’s massive military operations in Syria aim to degrade the rebel groups fighting the Assad regime. Heavy bombing sorties this week on the Syrian-Turkish border are cutting off tens of thousands of rebels from their only source of fresh supplies of weapons, ammo, food and fighters, leaving them without a line of retreat and nowhere to send their wounded.

After a week or two of intensive Russian air strikes against Turkish supply convoys crossing into Syria, intelligence and military experts expect the Syrian army, Iranian and Hizballah forces to use the rebels’ plight for an all-out offensive to destroy them.

link


And no, I don't expect tank battles between Syria/Russia and Turkey. Erdogan is not THAT big a fool. He is quietly taking his wooping in Syria.

[Cid_Yama]

Russia speeds tons of heavy artillery and MRLs to Syria for expanded ground combat

After several incidents, in which 130mm shells fired by Syrian rebel groups, particularly the Al-Nusra Front, reached the center of the Russian Khmeimin military enclave outside Latakia, the general staff in Moscow decided to rush heavy artillery reinforcements to Syria.

Russia has transferred two types of heavy weapons systems by sea and by air to the front near Latakia during the past few days.

First, a body of three battalions of 2S19 Msta-S self-propelled howitzers was deployed at Khmeimin and has already started pounding rebel lines and command centers in the area. This heavy artillery system, capable of firing 152mm bombs at a rapid pace.

The 2S19 Msta-S has a modified chassis of a T-80 tank and a diesel motor of a T-72. It is effective against fortifications as well as military and terrorist targets in wooded mountain areas, exactly the kind of geographical environment in which the rebels around Latakia area are operating.

This self-propelled howitzer is also expected to be effective in battles being fought in the Qalamoun mountains, in order to break the stalemate in which the combined Iranian, Syrian, Iraqi and Hizballah forces have been bogged down for months in their efforts to knock over rebel strongholds.

Another heavy weapons system that Russia brought to Syria in recent days is the TOS-1 220mm multiple rocket launcher. This system, which is mounted on the chassis of a T-72 tank, has been deployed near the embattled Syrian cities of Hama and Homs.

link

S-400_range_map_25_11_15.jpg

The deployment of the highly advanced Russian S-400 anti-air missiles at the Khmeimin base, Russia’s military enclave in Syria near Latakia, combined with Russia electronic jamming and other electronic warfare equipment, has effectively transformed most of Syria into a no-fly zone under Russian control.

Moscow deployed the missiles last Wednesday, Nov. 25, the day after Turkish warplanes downed a Russian Su-24. Since then, the US and Turkey have suspended their air strikes over Syria, including bombardments of Islamic State targets. Both the US and Turkey are obviously wary of risking their planes being shot down by the S-400, so long as Russian-Turkish tensions run high over the Su-24 incident.

Friday, a US-led coalition spokesperson denied that the absence of anti-IS coalition air strikes had anything to do with the S-400 deployment in Syria. He said “The fluctuation or absence of strikes in Syria reflects the ebb and flow of battle.”

However, debkafile’s military sources confirm that neither the US, Turkey or Israel have any real experience in contending with the Russian S-400, which uses multiple missile variants to shoot down stealth aircraft, UAVs, cruise missiles and sub-strategic ballistic missiles. Its operational range for aerodynamic targets is about 250 km and for ballistic targets 60 km. The S-400 can engage up to 36 targets simultaneously.

Thei range covers at least three-quarters of Syrian territory, a huge part of Turkey, all of Lebanon, Cyprus and half of Israel.

Since the downing of their warplane, the Russians have put in place additionally new electronic warfare multifunctional systems both airborne and on the ground to disrupt Turkish flights and forces, Lt. Gen. Evgeny Buzhinksy revealed Friday.

Thursday, Nov. 26, a senior Israeli Air Force officer remarked that Israel is being careful to avoid friction with Russia, despite that country’s expanding military presence in Syria. “Russia is now a central player and can’t be ignored. But we each go our own way, according to our own interests,” the officer noted.

“Our policy is not to attack or down any Russian plane. Russia is not our enemy.” But what if Russian warplanes come over the Golan as part of a blitz to destroy Syrian rebels in southern Syria, some of which are backed by Israel?

link

Looks like Russia just put down a heavy foot in Syria.

[AgentR11]

Just a note of how effective Turkey downing that little bomber was...

Russian jets flew 431 sorties and hit 1,458 terrorist targets in Syria in the week of Nov 26 - Dec 4 - Russian MoD

This is what happens when you do something really really stupid, just because its legal. You can be assured that many of those targets that were destroyed were pro-Turkish groups and activities. Poroshenko a while back, promised to kill a hundred Donbas folks for every one of his that dies. He of course failed, and likely took the majority of all casualties in the conflict. Putin said nothing so overtly malicious as that. He just did it, with a smile.

[Tanada]

Just a note of how effective Turkey downing that little bomber was...

Russian jets flew 431 sorties and hit 1,458 terrorist targets in Syria in the week of Nov 26 - Dec 4 - Russian MoD

This is what happens when you do something really really stupid, just because its legal. You can be assured that many of those targets that were destroyed were pro-Turkish groups and activities. Poroshenko a while back, promised to kill a hundred Donbas folks for every one of his that dies. He of course failed, and likely took the majority of all casualties in the conflict. Putin said nothing so overtly malicious as that. He just did it, with a smile.

Here is a little update that popped up on my Yahoo news feed,

Almost three months after Russia started its bombing campaign in Syria at the request of President Bashar al-Assad there seemed little sign of it letting up at Moscow's sprawling facility deep in the strongman's heartland.

Russia's military said Wednesday its jets had carried out 59 sorties and destroyed some 212 targets in the past 24 hours, adding to the roughly 9,000 training camps, munition depots, command posts and oil refineries they claim to have taken out overall.

In a sign that it remains in an unrelenting mood, Moscow has also bolstered its firepower at the base to protect its aircraft over Syria after a Turkish F-16 shot down one of its fighter jets along the Syrian border on November 24.

- New defences -

At one end of the runway the radars of the most modern air defence system Russia's army possesses -- the S-400 -- rotated next to some half-dozen vast missile firing tubes.

President Vladimir Putin ordered the system to Syria in the days after the incident, and the defence ministry claims they rushed them over in hours.

"After they shot down our SU-24 plane the command was given and they were set up as quickly as possible," the commander of the air defence system told AFP, without giving his name.

The system can track some 300 targets and shoot down around three dozen simultaneously over a range of hundreds of kilometres, the military said.

"They are now permanently working on alert to provide full cover to our aviation flying over the whole of Syria and some of the Mediterranean," the commander told AFP.

Russia says its air campaign in Syria is aimed at destroying Islamic State jihadists and other terrorist groups in the war-torn country.

http://news.yahoo.com/more-firepower-ru ... 57774.html

[ROCKMAN]

T - Yep...in the end it all depends on the Rules of Engagement Putin has ordered. It may be no more complex then if any Turk aircraft comes within X miles of a Russian aircraft they'll light it up and send a S-400 it's way. And possibly with no warning given how quickly a Turk jet could put one of its USA made Sparrow or Sidewinder missiles on a Russian aircraft.