[onlooker]

That is why Kaiser I chose the words Fascist and Oligarchy to start this thread. This goes right across the spectrum from the far right to the far left. Both can opportunely utilize circumstances to embed themselves in power and utilize control tactics to maintain their grip on power. Power is tempting and never underestimate its power to seduce.

[KaiserJeep]

Yes, and I focussed exclusively on the fascist aspect in my previous message. One of the huge downsides to the Internet is that online profile we all have, which represents a huge and largely unavoidable loss of privacy - all it all came about by the desire of certain oligarchs to sell us all manner of "stuff" online. (See my latest in the thread "Millennial's and cell phones" for an explanation of what I mean by this.)

You may not be accustomed to thinking of tech supergeeks like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, and Steve Jobs as oppressors of personal freedom and violators of personal privacy - and I don't suggest they planned things to achieve that end - but they actually ended up fulfilling the role.

[Sixstrings]

Anybody who wishes to understand the fascist nature of the nominally socialist governments of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, etc. should read the excellent and entertaining trilogy of novels by Stieg Larsson (The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo / The Girl Who Played With Fire / The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest).

That's a good point kaiser, that the Left is doing this in a HUGE way as well. And then they've got the whole "political correctness" thing that doesn't even involve elected representatives.

As an American who is conscious of and protective of personal freedoms, the degree of government intrusion into private matters that is endured by citizens of the afore-mentioned countries (and other still moving left and getting more socialist) is shocking and saddening. Yet apparently many of the citizens of these countries are largely unaware of the lost privileges and liberties, never having had them during their lives.

Yes, I agree -- BUT, one should not run to the right wing either and have far right infringement of the Constitution in response to far left infringement, would you agree with that?

It's enough to cause a thinking person to have second thoughts about voting for Bernie Sanders.

Yep, I've thought the same. I like Sanders but don't know about his supporters. These far left green party safe space people.

BUT MY POINT IS.. it is NEVER right to go grab all the power in response to the other side doing the same thing.

Countries ought to have good, solid constitutions. It's ALWAYS a red flag when a country wants to start changing things and rewriting their constitution yet again. Removing term limits for the president, etc., then removing judges, doing things to remove all other checks on power.

We're VERY LUCKY to have our Constitution. We just have to support it, even when not supporting it seems to be good for whatever particular little issues we may have and it would be advantage against "the left" or "the right" (if one is a lefty).

And in my opinion, the US should be promoting, or at least favoring, constitutional rights and democracy in the world.

[onlooker]

thomas-jefferson-wide.jpg

[Lore]

True socialism is an experiment yet to be practiced by any nation. People like to throw a lot of names around which often have no resemblance to their real meaning.

[SeaGypsy]

True socialism is a myth. Australia & most of Europe is socialist lite, safety net redistributionist with minimum income guarantees affectively.

[onlooker]

One can say the same about Democracy. True Democracy has hardly ever existed. Perhaps Athens for awhile, perhaps here in the US for a little while. Other than that their has been no real democracy. The US lost it from late 1800s to early 1900s to the plutocrats and monied interests. Everywhere else countries have been controlled by a small minority with disproportionate wealth and political influence and power. It is the real and sad history of humanity. A history of a hierarchy system or oligarchy system controlled by a very small percentage of the population who via the power of money as well as hereditary systems of transference of power have managed to establish, maintain or reaffirm their hold on power

[Subjectivist]

Reality check, the only government systems that have ever existed outside of theory are the news that fit human nature.

If no "socialist" or "pure democracy" have ever existed it is because the humans involved instantly corrupted it to suit their desires. Repeating his wonderful a theoretical but unworkable system is might be entertaining, but it won't change human nature a single iota.

[AgentR11]

I think yall wish for too much.

Really here, as long as you don't break stuff, and don't block traffic and commerce, the fascism happens quietly, seamlessly out of sight. You have to be a bit more docile with official representatives of the state, and understand that harmless things that used to be legal are now illegal; but the illegalities seem well enough marked so as not to trip up too many that would quietly comply. A fascist government is simultaneously evil, and also very efficient in the delivery of public services; so you may not be free, but you are permitted to work and live, fish or go to the park, or even engage in travel... along permitted paths of course; boat down *that* creek, or drive down *that* road, enjoy your federal felony conviction, do not pass go, do not collect your $200.

So yeah, freedom died a few years back. Essentially Al Qaeda defeated the United States and replaced it with something much darker, though not terribly, internally aggressive. It still works more or less within the framework of the constitution; though a regular individual attempting to enforce their constitutional rights can largely expect to lose, and be financially and socially destroyed in the process. Only the wealthy can really afford to have rights; what the people have isn't a "right", its an indulgence granted by (a not overly malevolent) government authority. Materially opposing this is not possible, so you might as well just get used to it; accept what they will permit, and refrain from what is prohibited; and the system will let you live comfortably into your grey years, and then waste a whole bunch of economic activity to keep you alive for a few extra years.

It is what it is. Humans are as they are.

[KaiserJeep]

One can say the same about Democracy. True Democracy has hardly ever existed. Perhaps Athens for awhile, perhaps here in the US for a little while. Other than that their has been no real democracy. The US lost it from late 1800s to early 1900s to the plutocrats and monied interests. Everywhere else countries have been controlled by a small minority with disproportionate wealth and political influence and power. It is the real and sad history of humanity. A history of a hierarchy system or oligarchy system controlled by a very small percentage of the population who via the power of money as well as hereditary systems of transference of power have managed to establish, maintain or reaffirm their hold on power

The only time anything resembling true Democracy existed in the USA was between 1777 (Articles of Confederation) and 1791 (ratification of the US Constitution, amendments 1-10, aka the Bill of Rights). Ever since then, we have lived in a Constitutional Republic, a form of government that infuriates liberals to no end, because it establishes the rights and freedoms of individuals and strictly limits the powers of the Federal government.

The US Constitution was made deliberately difficult to amend, for very good reason - and it got even more difficult to amend after the union grew to more than 13 states. For example, as much as Americans criticise Sharia law and it's repression of women, the Equal Rights Amendment (originally proposed as Amendment #28 in 1929, revised many times) has failed of ratification, and women do not have the same rights as men in the USA under Federal law. The proposed ERA actually expired on June 30, 1982, still unratified by 3/4ths of the states. A minimum of 38 states must ratify the amendment before it becomes part of the constitution, and 15 states have not (Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, Virginia).

It is amusing to note that the majority of the 15 states refusing to ratify the ERA are controlled by Democrats.

Aside from the ERA, onlooker, I also disagree about something else. The last phase of the Industrial Revolution - which happened in the period of late 1800's to early 1900's - was also the genesis of the Middle Class in America. Prior to that, most labor was rural and agricultural, and following that, most labor was urban and white collar / blue collar. The plutocrats came here from Europe with their wealth, and some of them acquired a lot more during this time - and a bare few really did rise from humble origins to plutocrat status, whereupon they discovered that they did not have the proper "breeding" or "ancestry" to mix with "old money".

Before the Middle Class in urban areas, agricultural landowners were a bare few Middle Class. After the final phase of industrialization, the Middle Class was a majority in the USA.

Then the Democrats passed Obamacare, and impoverished the Middle Class into Lower Class status again.

[Keith_McClary]

Chaos In Court As Thugs Barge Into Hearing For Ukraine Oligarch's Ally
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (US gubmint)

A day in court for Ukrainian businessman-turned-politician Hennadiy Korban descended into chaos after thugs barged into the courtroom in Kyiv and began randomly beating those in attendance.

In a video uploaded to the Internet by Korban's UKROP party, young men, many wearing hoodies and other athletic attire, can be seen storming into the cramped quarters of the courtroom at the Dnipro District Court on December 27, amid screams of protest, mainly from the women present.

According to the Ukrainian news agency, UNIAN, whose correspondent was beaten, police did little to stop them.

As Korban supporters tussled with the troublemakers, a fire extinguisher went off repeatedly.
...
Korban, the head of UKROP and an opponent of President Petro Poroshenko, hails from the eastern industrial city of Dnipropetrovsk

These thugs seem to operate with impunity. RFERL doesn't mention any government concern about these incidents. Isn't this a feature of fascism?

EDIT :
Imagine how RFERL would spin it if this sort of thing happened in Russia.

[KaiserJeep]

Yeah, here in the USA we pretty much burn our pols in effigy, not real life. Seldom has a day passed when Obama and all his predecessors were not burned outside the White House by protesters for something or somebody.

A quantitative difference, if not a qualitative one.

[Keith_McClary]

Yeah, here in the USA we pretty much burn our pols in effigy, not real life. Seldom has a day passed when Obama and all his predecessors were not burned outside the White House by protesters for something or somebody.

A quantitative difference, if not a qualitative one.

I think it's a qualitative difference between burning in effigy vs gangs of thugs going into courtrooms and beating up people while the police stand and watch.

[KaiserJeep]

I think there would be - even today and even here in the USA - lynchings if our politicians did not guard themselves very well, using our money.

The difference between the USA and Ukraine is only that our pols are better guarded, which is why I said quantitative.

There are lots of tragedies in Washington, DC. My definition of a tragedy is a tree or a lamp post without a politician hanging from it.

[PrestonSturges]

thomas-jefferson-wide.jpg

That's a pretty obvious fake Jefferson quote, as are most TJ quotes on the internet.

https://www.monticello.org/site/jeffers ... tquotation

[Subjectivist]

I think there would be - even today and even here in the USA - lynchings if our politicians did not guard themselves very well, using our money.

The difference between the USA and Ukraine is only that our pols are better guarded, which is why I said quantitative.

There are lots of tragedies in Washington, DC. My definition of a tragedy is a tree or a lamp post without a politician hanging from it.

I think not. American/Canadian/EU politicians as a general rule are much more subtle in the way they manipulate the general public. The Ukrainians at this point in time seem much more ham fisted using explicit intimidation and open threats to get Joe6P to comply.

[Cog]

thomas-jefferson-wide.jpg

That's a pretty obvious fake Jefferson quote, as are most TJ quotes on the internet.

https://www.monticello.org/site/jeffers ... tquotation

Case in point of one of those people who opposes a constitutional republic form of government.



"The Constitution on which our Union rests, shall be administered by me [as President] according to the safe and honest meaning contemplated by the plain understanding of the people of the United States at the time of its adoption--a meaning to be found in the explanations of those who advocated, not those who opposed it, and who opposed it merely lest the construction should be applied which they denounced as possible." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Address, 1801. ME 10:248

[onlooker]

Maybe Jefferson did not say all those things, but those quotes it seems to me have stood the test of time in being accurate and prescient.

[Cid_Yama]

Fascism is right-wing extreme authoritarianism. You right-wingers may not like it, but you are not allowed to change the definition.

There can be left-wing extreme authoritarianism, but that would be considered Communism.

You far-righties on here call anything tinged of Socialism fascist, but that is an incorrect use of the term. Socialism is Socialism and extreme authoritarian Socialism is Communism.

What happened? Communism lose it's epithet status? Or just rebelling against being recognized for being the Fascists you are?

Idiots.

Also, Jefferson was a liberal. Texas banned him from being taught in school. What the board of education did is a perfect example of Fascism at work. No different than when the Nazis rewrote the textbooks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/educa ... .html?_r=0

[KaiserJeep]

Cid, you just don't get it. Fascism is absolutely NOT either Right wing or Left wing. Fascism is the act of imposing a different behavior or different choices on a person or group than they themselves would otherwise select, using the powers of government.

Fascism in the 1920's was invented and defined by Benito Mussolini during his extreme Left-wing Marxist phase as a labor organizer. It was adopted by and carried to an extreme by a Right-wing group in Germany in the 1930's, called the National Socialist Labor Party (aka Nazi's).

In the early to mid-20th Century, various flavors and degrees of Fascism were demonstrated by Hitler (extreme Right-wing), Stalin (extreme Left-wing), Mao Tse Tung (extreme Left-wing), Hideki Tōjō (extreme Right-wing), and Franco (Right-wing). In the later half of the 20th Century, Fascists existed and in some cases continue to exist in Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Serbia, Croatia, South Africa, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Turkey, etc.

Here's the original definition by Fascism's inventor Mussolini, altered minimally by the translation from Italian to English:

Fascism

1."Everything in the state". The Government is supreme and the country is all-encompasing, and all within it must conform to the ruling body, often a dictator.
2."Nothing outside the state". The country must grow and the implied goal of any fascist nation is to rule the world, and have every human submit to the government.
3."Nothing against the state". Any type of questioning the government is not to be tolerated. If you do not see things our way, you are wrong. If you do not agree with the government, you cannot be allowed to live and taint the minds of the rest of the good citizens.
The use of militarism was implied only as a means to accomplish one of the three above principles, mainly to keep the people and rest of the world in line. Fascist countries are known for their harmony and lack of internal strife. There are no conflicting parties or elections in fascist countries.

I do not believe that a pure Fascist state ever has or ever will exist, any more than has a pure Democracy. But milder forms have and continue to exist, it is a popular obsession of megalomaniacs everywhere to force others to conform.

Fascism exists today in the "Socialist Lite" countries of Europe, Canada, Iceland, and in the USA, where it is found mainly on college campuses and within the Democratic Party. In any aspect of life where you resent being forced to be politically correct, you have been the victim of some mild form of Fascism. In a situation such as a young and healthy person being forced to buy health insurance or a person being forced to pay for things such as abortion or capital punishment that go against their religion, the Fascism is becoming more extreme.

In recent history in the USA, the two most Fascist politicians in national politics are Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Barack Obama.