[The_Toecutter]

The rant posted at the start of this topic shows a problem that has only gotten worse since its posting. I currently have 10 years of experience in my field and have been out of any work related to my field of study since quitting a decent job last year to move home and help care for a sick parent(I did snag a low paying restaurant job, but in this "booming" economy, even that was a major struggle to get).

I recently got an insulting offer that I had to reject from a firm. They only wanted to pay $16/hr, for the same kind of work I used to do before quitting last year that was underpaying me(relative to the normal going rate) at $30/hr. I pointed out that the position has a much higher typical going rate based on the info provided by the indeed.com job posting, to no avail. Any bets that they're looking to get an H1B Visa applicant to fill that position for even cheaper than the offer they insulted me with? Considering that I would have to move and given the cost of rent these days, I'm better off washing dishes at the restaurant I am at. I'm at more than 19 months of job searching and more than 1700 applications/resumes sent out, and in this "booming" economy, that restaurant job is about all I've been able to get(I did score an engineering job in August that also paid $30/hr, but the contract got pulled a few days in and for me and a bunch of new hires it was back to the job search again...).

Students are told that if they want to succeed, study the STEM fields. Looks like that is being hollowed out and thrown to the wolves of globalization as well, just like most everything else. If one wants to avoid being a wage slave with no spare money, their best choices more often than not involve working with the military or surveillance state in some capacity, becoming part of the problem.

A fellow STEM graduate I know who was homeless for a period is making a living doing Doordash deliveries with his electric bike, as no one else will hire him. He's a competent and qualified individual willing, wanting, and able to do the work, but can't get it. His student loan defaulted years ago and due to relentless compounding interest and fees the loan is now of such balance that it will never be repaid. He's lost more than one good opportunity because he can't pass the credit check. There are many more that just ignore his resume, as seems to be happening to me. Recall that Boeing fiasco with the 737 Max planes crashing due to faulty software. This tragedy resulting in many hundreds of deaths involved engineers from India being paid $9/hr to write the code, with Boeing claiming they couldn't find anyone else to do the work, for a job he applied for repeatedly and also was highly qualified for, but was outright ignored in favor of the cheaper labor.

Something is really screwed up with the moral compass of many large companies these days.

In hindsight, dropping out of high school and selling dope may not have been such a bad idea, but I and others chose the "high road" so that we wouldn't have to do that. Lot of good all of that studying, sacrifice, debt, and hard work did for us. I make that same $9/hr some H1B was paid to write code for Boeing(when said H1B should have been paid closer to $90/hr) washing dishes and cleaning shitters, and it was a long struggle just to get that job that I didn't even need a high school diploma for, with my BSEE and 10 years experience in electrical engineering. One of my co-workers at the restaurant also has a college degree in a technical field. He can't find work in his field either, with "record low" unemployment in this "booming" economy. Fancy that.

[EnergyUnlimited]

I recently got an insulting offer that I had to reject from a firm. They only wanted to pay $16/hr, for the same kind of work I used to do before quitting last year that was underpaying me(relative to the normal going rate) at $30/hr.

To get $16 in Bangladesh they need to work for entire month, seven days a week and 12 hours shifts.

[The_Toecutter]

To get $16 in Bangladesh they need to work for entire month, seven days a week and 12 hours shifts.

True, but does someone in Bangladesh need to pay $700/mo for even the most basic shelter that they can find in their area that the authorities won't deprive them of if it runs afoul of the law or if too many people are sharing the space according to the occupancy permit? Is someone in Bangladesh forced to spend hundreds of dollars a month on utilities to stay in said basic shelter, even if they don't even use said utilities? Does someone in Bangladesh need to spend $300/mo for a diet free of processed poisons for one person if they lack the land to produce their own food?

If I didn't save my mom's house last year or have other family members I'm on good terms with, even making $9/hr in the US, I would be homeless, and arguably have an even lower living standard than someone in Bangladesh who can at least keep a roof over their head and cook yams with a makeshift oven, even if that person in Bangladesh may not have running water, a toilet, electricity, internet, or may have to share the space with 10 other people, at least they'd have shelter and the ability to prepare meals, which I'm priced out of without the help of family or without running afoul of the law, even making close to 100x what someone makes in Bangladesh.

It's not a 1:1 comparison. There are people in the USA that are making $30k a year and are not living all that well, living in the ghetto, unable to save anything, eating junk food all the time because that is all they can afford, unable to afford healthcare, have no alternatives to get to work other than a clunker automobile that eats their money, ect. Someone very well off by Bangladeshi standards making $10k a year in Bangladesh may be able to have more "play" money for luxuries or savings due to the difference in the cost of basic necessities than an American making $30k a year in the USA. On a net basis, the average Chinaman can save far more money up than an American making minimum wage, even though the Chinaman makes 1/5th as much.

Overhead costs matter greatly, and vary greatly from nation to nation. Corporations are using this to their advantage and in conjunction with the state are turning the USA into a nation of paupers embedded in a culture of compulsory consumption(eg. forced utilities to be allowed to live in a space even if one "owns" the property, occupancy permits limiting the number of persons per dwelling, sprawl where often the only viable form of transport is automobile, inability for people to find/maintain jobs without overpriced internet access, ect). Poorer Americans may be the richest paupers ever, but they are still paupers, unable to afford to do anything extraneous away from survival, often constantly accumulating debt just for survival, constantly dependent on handouts of some form because their pay from working often isn't enough for the necessities.

A $16 an hour job where I'd have to move out of my mom's basement means that I have to pay rent somewhere else PLUS keep her from losing her house, PLUS eat. And it would mean a paycheck to paycheck existence. No healthcare. No savings. No fun. Just work. I made a spreadsheet looking at this as an option after the fact, and there is no way I'd have been able to make it work other than living a paycheck to paycheck existence. I already knew that when the offer was presented though. What would $16/hr get me in Bangladesh? I'd probably be one of the richest people around for miles.

You know what makes that $16/hr especially insulting? That company very likely was going to charge the utility close to $150/hr for my work, which deducting my pay and the overhead expenses associated with employing me, would mean they make well more than $100/hr off of my work, while I'd be living a paycheck to paycheck existence. I know this because I saw the spreadsheets tallying the expenses of my previous employer when I made $30/hr before moving back home. They could have doubled or even tripled my pay, and still made a decent profit off of my work. Yet, I do the work, and they get the vast majority of the money that my work generates? That is why I complain of exploitation. This is not right. I made previous employers so much damned money that I would have been able to retire by now if I got to keep the majority of the value I added, and they'd still have made money off of me.

Yet here these greedy assholes are, rigging the market to ratchet down wages, preying on people who just want to make an honest living, whether in the USA or Bangladesh. Those Indian engineers making $9/hr for Boeing were grossly underpaid relative to the value they would have added were they competent. I'm sure they were ecstatic to make that $9/hr compared to the wages in India, as their living expenses were covered by Boeing and they could send that money back home where it would do a lot more. But instead Boeing's greed backfired, and now they want the taxpayer to cover the loss. They could have hired that fellow STEM graduate I know, paid him the $90/hr he was easily worth, still made a profit off of his work, and he'd have probably got the software code right and not killed hundreds of people in multiple nosedive airplane crashes, but he was ignored in favor of cheap labor. As a result, hundreds of people are dead and he's been homeless with ruined finances as a result of needing to take on debt to even go to school at all thanks to the money printers and administrators deliberately driving up the cost of education and creating a generation of student/alumni debt serfs whose debt can't even be wiped away in bankruptcy court. Hell, I bet he'd even have taken that job at a more modest $30/hr and been glad to have it, but he wasn't even contacted, even though he repeatedly applied, even though Boeing justified their request for the H1Bs on the basis that they couldn't find anyone able to do the work. How fucked up is that?

There's a clear trendline here. TPTB are wanting us to live very much like those working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, all month in Bangladesh: nothing to show for a life of hard work, while taking ALL the profit. In fact, one of the reasons I can't find a decent job relative to my local economy I live in is because I can't compete with a third world slum dweller. My overhead costs will never be as low, no matter how little I consume(and I consume extremely little), and I'm unwilling to work 12 hours a day 7 days a week just to "justify" my right to exist. These companies would force us to work for free if they could get away with it.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Corporations are using this to their advantage and in conjunction with the state are turning the USA into a nation of paupers embedded in a culture of compulsory consumption(eg. forced utilities to be allowed to live in a space even if one "owns" the property, occupancy permits limiting the number of persons per dwelling, sprawl where often the only viable form of transport is automobile, inability for people to find/maintain jobs without overpriced internet access, ect).

Americans have a lot to learn from Mexicans and others alike.
For example they must learn that these days many laws are there only to be broken.
Continuation of law obedience in environment of societal collapse is a virtue of the stupid.
Have seen this during commie collapse in Poland.
Those obeying defunct laws regardless of circumstances were experimentally proven to be *stupid loosers*.
Also: the more threatening commie government was in regard of law enforcement, the more powerless it was and people have learned it fast. Then most of different rules and regulations were blatantly ignored.
There is time now for Americans to learn the same (or be replaced by cheeky brown people).

You know what makes that $16/hr especially insulting? That company very likely was going to charge the utility close to $150/hr for my work, which deducting my pay and the overhead expenses associated with employing me, would mean they make well more than $100/hr off of my work, while I'd be living a paycheck to paycheck existence. I know this because I saw the spreadsheets tallying the expenses of my previous employer when I made $30/hr before moving back home.

They could have huge debts, which you are not aware about.

Regarding Boeing - it seems that they were paying for bananas and monkeys came to work.
2 aircrafts (and 200++ passangers) lost. I bet that now they regret not paying better.

I am STEM graduate - worked 10 years and saved enough to set my private business, jacked my job in pharma and enjoy my life from then onwards. I don't need boss or bank loan any more. Not even mortgage. Can be done.
Key to success: a bit of perseverance to achieve what planned and supportive, not wasteful wife who was never questioning my decisions.

[ROCKMAN]

EU - For sure re perseverance. Learned that is 40+ years as a petroleum geologist. Boom/bust cycle came to be expected no matter how good good times were and how bad bad times were. Lots of my school mates permanently dropped out in bad times. Some times meant delivering produce to restaurants/riding a 60 pound jackhammer and other shit jobs to keep the family content. But kept fingers in the oil patch. Adjusting for inflation in the oil patch I made as little as $12,000 in a year to $240,000 in a year. By accepting the boom/bust cycle as unescapable know in retirement have paid off mortgage, no debt, 100% health insurance (very handy with my MS having me fairly crippled) and actually end up with putting a little of Social Security check into savings every month. IOW even when I was "wealthy" kept a very modest life style. No big house I didn't need and bought cheap cars.

Didn't hurt that I finished my career during the last boom before I was forced into retirement. LOL.

[Newfie]

Rock,

Interesting story. Mine is different but with similar moral.

I started in transit climbing poles, moved to foreman, supervisor, foreman before getting a degree. Then I changed seats and worked in transit as a construction manager. Finally moved into transit consulting and got my PE.

I was able to avoid the boom/bust cycle, and the big salaries, but always had a decent paying job. By staying in the one Small industry I unintentionally networked and was always in demand.

Like you lived frugally, and saved. Now enjoying retirement immensely. Can’t say that about my career, some parts were challenging but way too many Ass holes to make it enjoyable. Or maybe I’m just too thin skinned and idealistic. LOL

[rockdoc123]

Like you lived frugally, and saved. Now enjoying retirement immensely. Can’t say that about my career, some parts were challenging but way too many Ass holes to make it enjoyable.

to my mind that is the single most important thing anyone can do....spend within your means. Our parents were experts at that game and passed it down to most of us but some seemed to have missed the lesson and for some reason the subsequent generations aren't interested in playing. A good example I have is an investment banker I know who was very high up in his organization, drawing in lots of money in salary and bonuses each year suddenly found himself unemployed when the oil and gas industry started to take it in the chin back in 2013 onwards. I knew of a small startup company that was looking for a CFO and I called this guy up to let him know I could smooth the way for him if he wanted. His comment was that as a startup he probably would only see a salary south of $180 K (CDN) per year and that wasn't enough to cover his monthly burn rate which was $20,000! I compared that to my own burn rate at the time and was completely astounded until I found out he had overleveraged on a very expensive home in the ritzy area of town, his kids were in private school and had horses and riding lessons weekly and his wife liked to take tennis holidays to California every couple of months. Of course, none of that is necessary but for some people they think it is and will fight to not give it up. I find it an interesting attitude as we always have put money away, saved for what we needed and had no desire for that which we didn't and I have to say we have been very happy over the years.
As to the comment about "way too many asshole to make it enjoyable" I have to agree. No matter what level you are at there is always a few of these around that just make life less enjoyable. When I was a young geo starting out there were people like that in supervisory positions and when I was a senior executive there was at least one or two CEO's who fit that bill as well as the occasional direct report who wanted to play political games to try and get your job. Really ends up draining your energy unnecessarily as it doesn't add to the bottom line . Retirement is much better.

[diemos]

Everything I've ever needed to know about personal finances I learned from reading one book in elementary school.

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."
Charles Dickens, Nicholas Nickleby

[Outcast_Searcher]

Everything I've ever needed to know about personal finances I learned from reading one book in elementary school.

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."
Charles Dickens, Nicholas Nickleby

That's actually more useful than 99% of the usual 300 to 500 page books on "how to invest" you'd find on, say Amazon.

But of course, in a society where the masses just LOVE debt and credit, good luck getting the masses to listen.

The more time passes, the more glad I am that my depression era parents had that concept as a core, mandatory "thing" in our household. It was as natural to me as breathing by the time I went out on my own. (Better lucky than smart).

[vtsnowedin]

Retirement is much better.

Totally agree!!

[Newfie]

Retirement is much better.

Totally agree!!

As do I.

[The_Toecutter]

Americans have a lot to learn from Mexicans and others alike.
For example they must learn that these days many laws are there only to be broken.
Continuation of law obedience in environment of societal collapse is a virtue of the stupid.

Agreed. I've broken many laws myself, and have no regrets doing it because I've never harmed anyone.

Have seen this during commie collapse in Poland.
Those obeying defunct laws regardless of circumstances were experimentally proven to be *stupid loosers*.
Also: the more threatening commie government was in regard of law enforcement, the more powerless it was and people have learned it fast. Then most of different rules and regulations were blatantly ignored.
There is time now for Americans to learn the same (or be replaced by cheeky brown people).

America is much different than Poland, and in some ways, even worse. Law enforcement and intelligence is greatly over-funded here, and this nation locks up more people into the prison system, both nominally and per capita, than any other nation to have ever existed, even compared to the former USSR at the height of the gulags.

Getting away with things may be easy here, but not for long periods of time or as a way of life. I've seen plenty of people for whom it has caught up to, and not necessarily because they did something stupid. Freedom in the USA is a myth. The law enforcement system is so bloated that even people who make an effort not to commit crimes end up caught up in the "justice" system and have their lives ruined and finances drained, just for being accused of a crime, even if they didn't actually commit it. On top of that, there are so many laws that everyone is a criminal here, with the average American unknowingly committing 3 felonies a day.

With the surveillance infrastructure the USA has, everyone is really just waiting for the chance for the "justice" system to strip them of their "freedom" and assets, or if one chooses to go into politics, waiting to be blackmailed.

They could have huge debts, which you are not aware about.

Perhaps. But at one point, so too did I. The difference is that mine weren't dischargable in bankruptcy court should I have been unable to pay, even if I ended up disabled and in a wheelchair unable to work. Further, the extracting parasites as a result of that debt are the same billionaires I've been complaining about. Nearly everything and everyone is in debt these days, and this plays into the prices of goods/services/labor as well while these parasites feed off of the economy in every direction. The fact that I have no debt makes me a relative rarity in the USA. I'm not at all rich, not that far from being destitute, but on a net basis, I have more wealth than an overwhelming majority of Americans, who have come to see their grotesque levels of debt now required to live the "American dream" as wealth. It is frightening to think about.

What is sad is that had I not found the low paying job I currently have, I'd have taken that $16/hr job out of desperation, even knowing it would have been a trap. I'd be facing the looming prospect of destitution right now had I not found that job. I can at least set a paltry amount of money aside staying in my mom's basement making $9/hr.

Regarding Boeing - it seems that they were paying for bananas and monkeys came to work.

There's a trend in firms paying bananas for non-monkey work, and those who aren't monkeys are desperate, facing destitution or are currently destitute, and are faced with the choice of get paid in bananas or get paid nothing at all.

The market is rigged such that this can be done now with those for whom there is a shortage of their skills. That friend of mine who was homeless who applied to that Boeing job scratch-built a one-wheeled segway-like vehicle, and did all of the engineering and software coding himself. It balances well and can even stay upright riding in the snow. He is no monkey, and he cannot find work in his field, no matter how many places he applies to, and how many of his scant resources he expends trying. I'm no monkey either, having designed an electric car when I was a teenager before that field took off, and here I am today washing dishes at a restaurant having not gotten the opportunity to make use of my skills/interests because I was trying to claw my way out of debt.

Companies complain they can't find people with our skills. Basic economics says that wages should be going up as a result to attract people to those fields. The government grants H1B Visas to desperate foreigners, whether they are qualified or not, who gladly do the non-monkey work for monkey pay, because it is better than what they'd get in their home countries.

2 aircrafts (and 200++ passangers) lost. I bet that now they regret not paying better.

Doubtful. As usual, the taxpayer will be made to cover it.

I am STEM graduate - worked 10 years and saved enough to set my private business, jacked my job in pharma and enjoy my life from then onwards. I don't need boss or bank loan any more. Not even mortgage. Can be done.
Key to success: a bit of perseverance to achieve what planned and supportive, not wasteful wife who was never questioning my decisions.

I started out with five-figures in debt, after earning scholarships to cover most of my tuition. I spent enough in interest to have started my own firm, without those resources to show for my work. I lived very, very frugally. When one is picked apart financially in all directions and ends up with almost nothing after a decade of working a decent-paying job, all the while living like a poor person, it is not very encouraging. At least I managed to get rid of my debt. My friend who can code really well isn't so lucky, as his has gone into default, ballooned into the mid six figures from interest/fees(his was about the same as mine when we graduated), and it cannot be wiped away in bankruptcy court. He's lost plenty of well-paying job opportunities because he couldn't pass the credit check.

Something is seriously broken in this country already. There are millions of people in this country just like us, who did all the right things, are competent, picked a "practical" major, did well in school, and generally tried to do the best we could, who have been cast aside as if we were refuse. Even if I find a decent job, it won't change this problem one iota. That die has been cast for millions of this nation's best and brightest, and a majority of losers are baked into that cake. It does not bode well for the future stability of this country, class warfare being at the heart of this issue(like many others).

On my day off, I will be handing in a resume to yet another firm, in person, hoping they will take note and perhaps grant an interview. I did the same thing last winter, many times having ridden my trike 50+ miles over the course of the day going door to door looking for a job. It's gotten old, but I won't be giving up. At least I have a job right now, even if it's low paying by 1st world standards. I'm not facing the metaphorical sword of Damocles anymore.

[The_Toecutter]

I'm still working at a restaurant, possessing skills employers bitch they can't find(yet don't want to pay for). Thousands more applications/resumes sent since this COVID shit started, and I've only gotten 2 phone interviews so far. I'm about to cut the searching down greatly. I could spend the 15+ hours a week doing other things that are less boring and possibly even offer a return.

Last week, another former classmate of mine contacted me to see if I could help him find work. He was working at an engineering firm in Colorado, almost making 6 figures, when he was laid off due to a series of events that resulted from the COVID-19 virus. He received unemployment for the duration. The company was bought out in the meantime. Under new ownership, the company offered to hire him back, at a paltry $16/hr, and reminded him he'd lose his unemployment if he rejected the offer.

He's not very happy right now, and because he did the "responsible" thing of taking out a mortgage on a modest home and a few years ago bought a cheap/reliable < $25,000 new car to get around when his beater became too expensive to maintain, and decided to have offspring(one of which has medical complications that require insurance to afford), he was not going to make enough money to make the payments for those things plus basic living expenses at 40 hours a week, unless he took his new employer's offer up to work as much overtime as he "wants". He's been looking at a 70-80 hour a week work schedule, just to make ends meet, making roughly what he made collecting unemployment when the $600/week supplement was included, both of which were greatly less than what he was making last year. Most of his coworkers were let go permanently.

If he didn't "voluntarily" take this offer with what amounts to nearly a 70% pay cut on an hourly basis, he could always go destitute and lose everything like tens of millions of Americans are currently facing the prospect of, as well as watch one of his children suffer from health issues.

I'm willing to bet none of the board of directors made any sacrifices.

So this is what the "new normal" looks like? Revolt is right around the corner, and it will have been a long time coming.

[Newfie]

His only option is to keep working while he keeps looking. ALWAYS keep looking. Things like what happened to him are part of life. Be flexible, have back up plans, network, market yourself. The only job security you have is your resume and reputation, if you don’t know anyone you have no reputation. Some may view this as sucking up, it is. Some times sucking up is a necessity.

But yeah he’s in deep; married, mortgage, mutts.

[The_Toecutter]

His only option is to keep working while he keeps looking. ALWAYS keep looking. Things like what happened to him are part of life. Be flexible, have back up plans, network, market yourself. The only job security you have is your resume and reputation, if you don’t know anyone you have no reputation. Some may view this as sucking up, it is. Some times sucking up is a necessity.

But yeah he’s in deep; married, mortgage, mutts.

The problem is, how do you get them to pay?

They ask you why they should hire you when they can hire 2 or 3 people from India for the same amount, and do not like when you mention that this is not India, and that the costs of living are not the same as India. They don't even seem to care when you tell them you will be able to do the work without being a liability because you are competent. Then when you ask for a wage commensurate with the work, they call you "entitled", in spite of the fact that if they paid you a wage commensurate with the work they'd still be making 2-3x more money off of your work than you are. Greedy fucks.

The official statistics show that such low pays for engineers are an extreme anomaly, yet most of the people I know in that field and have worked with are currently making a pay towards the lower end of the curve, which sheer probability would show is highly improbable or even impossible if the official statistics are true. Like many other things in this society, something is wrong with the official numbers.

It's easy to say to "Be flexible, have back up plans, network, market yourself", and in and of itself it is not bad advice. The problem is that these things take both time and money, which, are both scarce enough that unless one is already well off, they will have insufficient resources to continue to do those things while they're either living a paycheck to paycheck existence or worse.

This whole damn crumbling system is rigged against anyone not born with a silver spoon up their ass.

The brutal truth is that I'd very likely be ahead of where I am right now if I never even tried, never wasted my time earning scholarships for college, and just worked a shitty restaurant job starting at the age of 16 and stayed in my parents' basement for the duration until the present, slowly stacking money. I'd probably have finished my EV car conversion in my early 20s had I done that, which may have opened up opportunities(although not having a permission slip to work called a degree still would have been a lock from most jobs in that field, but today that degree is proving near worthless anyhow even when combined with 10 years experience in an engineering field).

My best friend from childhood who committed suicide in 2018(long story) did just that, working shitty low wage jobs his whole life, and he was able to build up more money than me and do more things than me in his 20s, by not being burdened with student loans and not having had to pay enough interest to have bought a house in the meantime. He was frugal with his money almost to the extreme that I was, and him and his wife made enough that they could set something aside by living like they were dirt poor(they weren't close to what counts as middle class in the 1st world, mind you).

Some of my former co-workers at the restaurant ALSO had college degrees for skills that were supposedly in high demand, yet they were stuck working a crappy restaurant job instead.

Some of the people I went to school with, who have skills companies complain they cannot find, ended up homeless. The times they get any job offer at all, it is usually an insult that would have not made them better off than dropping out of high school and working minimum wage once you factor in their student loan burden.

This wage/debt slave economy won't hold for much longer. People are rightfully pissed. Opportunities appear to abound to those who were born in and/or live in a comfortable bubble, but to those desperately seeking said opportunities, outside of selling your soul to the military industrial complex or to some pyramid scheme set up to eventually collapse, opportunities are next to non-existent. These same people seeking and not finding these opportunities are then relentlessly harangued for not being successful by their more successful peers, when said peers are in the position they are because of luck, and little else. Interesting times we are living in.

[Newfie]

Toe,

Me option which I mention but am not pushing may be open to you. Depending upon your age you may be able to enlist in the military. You SHOULD be able to become a commissioned officer after having gone through OCS. But it has its advantages even as an enlisted man, IF you work it right.

I didn’t work it right up front but eventually figured it out. I was poor and didn’t have any clear idea about a future beyond the end of a beer bottle. The service helped me get organized and start a life. I never took out student loans and didn’t finish college until 39. So, yeah, it can be a long road.

Maybe you are too old. Maybe not. But the pay, hours, and resume beats what you are doing. There are many options, it’s not all about war. I did the USCG because of my CO status. Seemed like a reasonable compromise, I would do 4 years get paid and not be shot.

Like I said, not pushing it, just mentioning it in case it is available to you and you haven’t thought of it.

[The_Toecutter]

Toe,

Me option which I mention but am not pushing may be open to you. Depending upon your age you may be able to enlist in the military.

I will be 40 in a few short years. I don't know if that is too old or not. Given the way things are going, I do not consider that much of an option. While I may be able to make some money going that route, there are costs far greater than the money that one will reap from it.

I appreciate the attempt to help, but I'd have less ethical qualms becoming the neighborhood dope dealer or even straight up robbing people, if it ever came to that, and neither of those are my inclination either(I'd rather be dead than ever resort to the latter, and I find the military an even worse option).

Once I get some vehicle prototypes finished, I will be able to prove to potential employers that I can build something. I just hope it's not a decade or more too late. Even if it is, someone will eventually notice. I had the skillset more than a decade ago, I just didn't have the damned money to put that skillset to use.

What I am doing for money now sucks, but it is a means to an end. I'm mere months away from finally finishing something. I just need to avoid destitution in the meantime. Not a small task, but so far, not an insurmountable one. If I lose this crappy restaurant job, that changes the variables to consider a bit.

One of my former co-workers from the engineering job I used to have wants to start his own firm. I know that once he does, he would hire me straight away. He knows the sort of work that I can do and knows that I am great at it. He grew up in upper middle class privilege and avoided student debt as a result, so he was able to actually use his money towards his own goals instead of being preyed upon by the banksters. He might get there in a few more years. We still keep in contact. He now works in Tulsa and is doing great. Because he had family members in the business, he's also paid very well, much more than I've ever made, in spite of having less credentials and greatly less experience.

Another former coworker from the same company, also an electrical engineer, did not survive the round of layoffs that occurred shortly after I left. He's now working at a Metro PCS for $8/hr, and has been doing so, for more than a year. He's tried and failed to find something better. He's had many of the same difficulties as me, except that because he bought a modest house, he was not able to pay his student loan off as I did before he lost that job, and now it's endlessly accruing interest in default.

Companies all over bitch they cannot find people with our skillsets. The truth is, it's all a shell game. They don't want to pay us. They want to drag us down to the point where we are so desperate that we're willing to work for bananas, while expecting professionalism, dedication, and loyalty every step of the way. Then when we reject that unfair arrangement, the government allows these companies to hire the monkeys willing to work for the bananas, and when things go wrong, they get government bailouts for their malfeasance, while the skilled are doing menial labor, also for bananas, with their skills going unused. The unskilled are expected to just meekly crawl somewhere and die.

And thus, the younger generations increasingly favor socialism and schemes like the UBI. That didn't occur in a vacuum. It isn't because of any sense of entitlement. Post 2008, things really ARE that bleak in the U.S. for the younger generations. The official numbers post 2008 won't ever show that thanks to all of the "hedonic adjustments", "seasonal adjustments", and other obfuscations, but with what is going on right now, it's no longer possible to cover it up as well as it has been. Whether it's a little or a lot, the shit is hitting the fan right now.

[jedrider]

I work in the tech field at a relatively low wage. I want to retire and give my job to some young dude, but I know they will just hire someone in India.

According to what management says they want, I should be scouting for my replacement, maybe some young attractive woman who they say they need in their organization to restore gender balance. Alas, no luck

[AdamB]

My engineering career began a long time ago, treated me well, and laid a strong foundation for Careers #2 and #3.

My opinion of the products and value of a modern secondary education (including engineering) has changed quite a bit, over the intervening decades. Most notably in just the past decade. And I'm not talking about the local liberal arts university, I mean graduate degrees from Ivy League programs. Top flight engineering schools. Jobs with career tracks, and everything that should come with a job, 40 hour weeks, health care and decent retirement options and more than fair paid time off.

"What do you mean Facebook is blocked during work hours!!!" they scream!

Children raised in the largess of summer I suppose. Those of us with our formative years in the 1970's remember what winter looks and feels like.

[The_Toecutter]

Children raised in the largess of summer I suppose. Those of us with our formative years in the 1970's remember what winter looks and feels like.

Post 2008 is winter, and the 1970s were, relatively speaking, the summer. Consider how many hours of work, then versus now, it took to buy a house, or a new car, pay for college, or afford health insurance at minimum wage, median wage, and the typical engineers wage for the time, and you will find that today is about 1/3 as prosperous overall post 2008 versus the 1970s. Forget household income, because back then, it took a single wage earner to support a family. Forget the CPI inflation numbers, as they have all kinds of adjustments that obfuscate any valid comparison.

My father before he passed away used to tell me stories of when he was a minimum wage janitor in 1970 and then a social worker not making much above minimum wage soon after. He could afford a 2 bedroom apartment in a good neighborhood, a new MGB GT sports car, pay for most of his college(he had a small amount of debt, no scholarships), go out to bars and get trashed every night, do drugs regularly, and had access to all kinds of frivolities. When the 1980s came and he studied to become a nurse and started a family, he never had it as good as that ever again, in spite of making better money. My father never was good with money, and passed away owing on his student loans, while me and my siblings inherited nothing, but he had it good back then when he was first getting started and he knew it.

To contrast, in 2008, I made more than 3x minimum wage, lived in the ghetto with roommates, drove a clunker for longer trips but otherwise rode a bicycle for most of my VMT to save money, and did everything I could to get out of student loan debt even after scholarships covered the majority of my tuition. All I have to show for my 10 years of hard work and sacrifice is having clawed my way out of student loan and medical debt and two incomplete vehicle projects that if put together from start to finish will have cost less than the typical new car, one of which I began the design of way the fuck back in high school for the purpose of trying to get a career in the electric vehicle industry.

I graduated college in 2007. There's been no spring or summer for me. I was at one time slightly optimistic for my future, but medical debt, student loan debt, combined with not being rewarded for having the highest productivity out of scores of people I worked with while simultaneously seeing those who sometimes didn't show up for work or slept at their computers and didn't put out the numbers get promoted because of their connections really put a damper on that optimism. Couple that with not being able to find much of anything that paid remotely as good after moving back home in spite of an otherwise impeccable work history during the duration I had a career, and that just seals it.

Most of my former coworkers from the engineering firms are drowning in debt just to afford modest 1200 sq ft homes in decent neighborhoods, cheap < $25k new cars, and the 1-2 child families they started, debt that likely won't be paid off until they are in their 50s or 60s, best case scenario, assuming no tragedy befalls them in the interim. Can they reasonably not expect to lose their jobs or have any expensive health complications between now and then? They're hanging by a thread and will lose EVERYTHING if something goes wrong, and some of them, having lost their jobs, are already on the path toward ruin.

The fact that one can pull out a phone and access Facebook or have internet access in a cushy cubicle(only if they are lucky enough to land such a job), while being saturated with distractions("entertainment") from the media, is poor consolation for the fact that we went from needing one low wage earner to be able to support a family to needing two median wage earners to be able to support a family.

I'd like some of your winter, please.