[Heineken]

If you live on your woodlot, that becomes difficult, SPG. Since chainsaws are so noisy. I guess wood could be stolen the old-fashioned way, though, with axes and handsaws.

The whole state of Michigan was deforested in about 20 years with axes. link Amazing how much hardier we will discover that we are once the alternative is freezing.

Actually I'd be perfectly happy to give away some of my wood. Would help improve the woodlot.

What about when it's 10 neighbors? Or 100? As much as I'm a fan of sustainable living, I'm just not sure how it can really be done when you're surrounded by an ocean of desperate people living unsustainably. Sooner or later you become just one more resource to be consumed. Freezing people don't care a whit about property lines.

I have very few neighbors, and they have large wooded lots themselves.

I wouldn't live here if I had 100 or even 10 neighbors! I'd move.

It's really hard for me to convey just how much wood there is here, not only around me but in this county, which is about 60% forested.

It's an ocean of trees.

[nobodypanic]

Heineken-

I hate to spoil your fantasy but ive been out in the woods a lot lately, and while i love the forest in the late fall and even in the depths of winter...the forest in the summer is HELL. In my honest opinion i can say that i love being able to come home and lay down in my air conditioned house on my leather chair and type away on the notebook !!! Its just the sweltering heat, the humdity and the GOD AWFUL man sized mosquitoes that are never ending (its been a bad year here). I actually was running in the woods at one point because they were so bad. SO no... i'd never spend a summer in the woods of Wisconsin. Late October...no problem.

I tried taking the wife to the Chequamegon National Forest camping for a few days and we left after an hour the bugs were so bad.

if you think the woods in the summer are hell, you should try open country w/no cover. i do a lot of mountain biking, and i can without any doubt attest that having trees shield you from the full sun in the middle of summer makes a huge difference. of course i am not claiming you won't get hot or that it's anything like sitting in an air-conditioned room, mind you, just that it's better than no trees--much better.

[Serial_Worrier]

This pretty much guarantees a 6,000,000,000 dieoff.

[FoolYap]

I've found large trees (up to 2 feet dbh, say) fairly easy to process into firewood. The secret is to cut the rounds much shorter. The pieces can then be moved and split easily. The chunky split wood is harder to stack, so I just pile it instead.

I agree. But 24" DBH trunks are puny! Mere saplings compared to the old-growth stuff that used to cover much of the country. Those lunkers were 4, 5, sometimes 8 feet across.

--Steve

[Heineken]

Right. Climax forest.

Gone, except for a few tiny remnants.

Maybe in another 500 years, if we get off the stage.

[cube]

Despite rising populations, the USA and UK currently have more forest cover than they did at the start of the 20th century.

I guess the advent of (coal - oil - nat gas) as alternative heat sources made this possible.
Once FF becomes unavailable people will pick up their axes and start chopping those trees down.

[vtsnowedin]

Despite rising populations, the USA and UK currently have more forest cover than they did at the start of the 20th century.

I guess the advent of (coal - oil - nat gas) as alternative heat sources made this possible.
Once FF becomes unavailable people will pick up their axes and start chopping those trees down.

Well actually most of the eastern forest was cleared to make way for farming. Much of it was just burned to get it out of the way of the plows. It started growing back when horses stopped being the primary power source, freeing up the one third of farmland that was needed just to grow the hay, pasture and grain for the horses. Then commercial fertilizer and better seeds bumped yields from 50 bushel of corn per acre to well over 125 today. This freed up another third.
Post TSHTF we will need to find a way to grow good crop yields using some power source other than horses.

[Ludi]

Post TSHTF we will need to find a way to grow good crop yields using some power source other than horses.

See permaculture, biointensive, natural farming. These methods already exist, we don't need to wait post TSHTF to find them. They all require people to live on the land, though.



On topic: no firewood shortage here, but we don't need to heat very much.

[mos6507]

Which means apartment dwellers are SOL.

[vtsnowedin]

Post TSHTF we will need to find a way to grow good crop yields using some power source other than horses.

See permaculture, biointensive, natural farming. These methods already exist, we don't need to wait post TSHTF to find them. They all require people to live on the land, though.



On topic: no firewood shortage here, but we don't need to heat very much.

I have been saving that reading for after I get the potatoes dug and in the cellar. Right now I have twelve cord of blocked wood heaped up in the yard that needs to be split and stacked but it is rainning $#@(*&^%$@# *&^%$# again. -)

[Ludi]

Which means apartment dwellers are SOL.

Food could still possibly be sold to the cities, but not such large cities as we currently have. The trend to live in cities would probably need to reverse, but much of the good land has been paved over, as we've discussed previously. Not to mention it's unlikely there will be some kind of equitable land redistribution in the future. So, realistically, it is hard to see a way out of this that doesn't require massive upheaval of society.

[cube]

Which means apartment dwellers are SOL.

Food could still possibly be sold to the cities, but not such large cities as we currently have. The trend to live in cities would probably need to reverse, but much of the good land has been paved over, as we've discussed previously. Not to mention it's unlikely there will be some kind of equitable land redistribution in the future. So, realistically, it is hard to see a way out of this that doesn't require massive upheaval of society.

I read somewhere that modern agricultural has a labor productivity of 1 to 50 meaning 1 person can produce enough food for 50 people.
but...
I wonder, if a civil engineer builds a damn and then a 500 mile aqueduct so a farmer can grow citrus fruit in California would that count as "helping" to grow food? Our society is so interdependent it's hard to say how many people it takes to do something because the production of anything requires the participation of the whole of society.
//
I'm curious Ludi what is the labor productivity of bio-intensive farming?
I saw a youtube video of the "Biointensive double dig" technique. YIKES!
That looks like HARD labor.
I think I'll stay in my apartment in the city.

[Ludi]

I think biointensive is too hard also, which is why I favor permaculture.

Sorry to go off-topic here, folks.

Growing especially productive crops (such as potatoes), biointensive can be 10 times more productive per unit of land than conventional agriculture. Per hour productivity can potentially be as high as conventional ag, but I'm not sure this has been proven with hard numbers.

Reference: "Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons