[ki11ercane]

If or when the US Gubmint does default, what would that unlease upon our heads?

Governments cannot default because they have the legal authority to extract wealth from their citizens and the guns to back it up.

Citizens can be raped into poverty, but governments cannot default.

That is 110% CORRECT! If you're name appears in CAPITAL LETTERS on your passport and/or your land title, the government has made you a corporate entity to itself, and can by legal authority at anytime place you into slave servitude (ie. tax you to death) or take your land and there is nothing short of insurrection to stop them. It has been done countless times in the past, and it will happen again.

The only way to stop the government at that point is to overthrow it, remove those in power, and re-instate a new government. This too has been done countless times in the past, and it will happen again. Perhaps in our lifetime, who knows.

However 200 years from then it will happen all over again, but we'll be all dust by then anyways. Until there is complete social evolution and the elimination of monetary instruments, this will always happen again and again.

You can always run into the bush and try to live off the land however 390,000,000 people (Canada and the U.S.) can't do it all at once. It's been done before they are called cities. And you can't relinquish your SSN or SIN or passport and you can't own land without a title so in a sense as silly as it sounds, like in the Matrix: "you were born into servitude."

As I have said I think about 6 other times here already, if the government wants to get out of debt, it is never ever worried about it because it will simply take it from it's citizens, businesses, churches, etc. It will simply in act laws to make it so. What do you think this $700 billion package is?

The only way this is going to stop at this point is for wholesale denial of paying your taxes and armed conflict preparation at the same time. Because when people stop paying their taxes on a massive scale, the government will come with guns as the previous poster said and either kill you or force you to pay AFTER they have taken your land. You'd have to be ready for that. The problem is about 99.5% of the U.S. (and Canadian) public are dumbed down Sheeple and there simply isn't enough enlightened people yet (and may not ever happen) to make a difference anymore. We are an island in a Sea of Idiots. And our governments know this already.

I know I have condemned people for saying this here before, but at times it seems the wholesale destruction of society (not the world) through Peak Oil or whatever else seems like the only way to end this madness, and I guess sometimes I understand how the Peakers want things to fall apart NOW because this stuff is happening NOW. It seems social decimation, not pro-active solutions is the only way to fix things now.

Who knows, maybe I am wrong. However I haven't seen a Million Man/Woman march on Washington so the proof is in the pudding. Maybe Americans want it this way I don't know. Sorry if this offends Americans and I am not trying to trounce on Americans, their flag, or their country. If the same thing happened here in Canada I'd criticize my own people too. (and we deserve it at times) I personally don't want to see this $700 billion dollar package to go through because it will become a benchmark for any other country to do the same thing and will only push us closer to a World Government and all that tinfoil crap Alex Jones yaks about all the time. I am worried for my kids and their kids.

[bl00k]

That is 110% CORRECT! If you're name appears in CAPITAL LETTERS on your passport and/or your land title, the government has made you a corporate entity to itself, and can by legal authority at anytime place you into slave servitude (ie. tax you to death) or take your land and there is nothing short of insurrection to stop them. It has been done countless times in the past, and it will happen again.

The only way to stop the government at that point is to overthrow it, remove those in power, and re-instate a new government. This too has been done countless times in the past, and it will happen again. Perhaps in our lifetime, who knows.

However 200 years from then it will happen all over again, but we'll be all dust by then anyways. Until there is complete social evolution and the elimination of monetary instruments, this will always happen again and again.

Forgive me for not knowing, but when was the last time that has happened?

[ki11ercane]

That is 110% CORRECT! If you're name appears in CAPITAL LETTERS on your passport and/or your land title, the government has made you a corporate entity to itself, and can by legal authority at anytime place you into slave servitude (ie. tax you to death) or take your land and there is nothing short of insurrection to stop them. It has been done countless times in the past, and it will happen again.

The only way to stop the government at that point is to overthrow it, remove those in power, and re-instate a new government. This too has been done countless times in the past, and it will happen again. Perhaps in our lifetime, who knows.

However 200 years from then it will happen all over again, but we'll be all dust by then anyways. Until there is complete social evolution and the elimination of monetary instruments, this will always happen again and again.

Forgive me for not knowing, but when was the last time that has happened?

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Pretty much any history book on the American Revolution too.

Second World War in Europe - complete social upheaval after the war and a re-writing of society in Germany.

Canada - FLQ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_l ... u%C3%A9bec

To name a few examples.

[jbrovont]

This is more than 1 months rent or mortgage payment for a huge number of people.

They'll notice it.

Again, when looking at the numbers from a "presidential term" standpoint, 1 trillion over 4 years over 300,000,000 people is only $833.33 per year per person. Chump change. It's an average tax hike of 4.15% annually approximately, and that's encompassing everything from personal, energy, state, retail, etc. You as a tax paying individual will probably barely notice it.

[smallpoxgirl]

Governments cannot default because they have the legal authority to extract wealth from their citizens and the guns to back it up.

Citizens can be raped into poverty, but governments cannot default.

Au Contraire mon frere.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005 ... tionalnews

In 2001 Argentina did precisely that.

[ki11ercane]

Governments cannot default because they have the legal authority to extract wealth from their citizens and the guns to back it up.

Citizens can be raped into poverty, but governments cannot default.

Au Contraire mon frere.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005 ... tionalnews

In 2001 Argentina did precisely that.

My apologies yes that is correct. In that case Argentina defaulted with the IMF however it's financial exposure to the rest of the global economic community was not as profound as the U.S.

[ki11ercane]

This is more than 1 months rent or mortgage payment for a huge number of people.

They'll notice it.

Again, when looking at the numbers from a "presidential term" standpoint, 1 trillion over 4 years over 300,000,000 people is only $833.33 per year per person. Chump change. It's an average tax hike of 4.15% annually approximately, and that's encompassing everything from personal, energy, state, retail, etc. You as a tax paying individual will probably barely notice it.

$833.33 per year, or $70.00 per month.

I am thinking there are no $70.00 mortgages or rents out there anymore.

[InverseBetaDecay]

This is more than 1 months rent or mortgage payment for a huge number of people.

They'll notice it.

Again, when looking at the numbers from a "presidential term" standpoint, 1 trillion over 4 years over 300,000,000 people is only $833.33 per year per person. Chump change. It's an average tax hike of 4.15% annually approximately, and that's encompassing everything from personal, energy, state, retail, etc. You as a tax paying individual will probably barely notice it.

$833.33 per year, or $70.00 per month.

I am thinking there are no $70.00 mortgages or rents out there anymore.

Actually, about 120 million people don't pay any federal tax, so the 300 million population figure should be adjusted. Also, the 1 trillion number will probably be too optimistic-

[hope_full]

Again, when looking at the numbers from a "presidential term" standpoint, 1 trillion over 4 years over 300,000,000 people is only $833.33 per year per person. Chump change. It's an average tax hike of 4.15% annually approximately, and that's encompassing everything from personal, energy, state, retail, etc. You as a tax paying individual will probably barely notice it.

There are some boo boos in your ciphering.

First, the US may have 300 million residents, but not 300 million taxypayers. There are *about* 110 million households in the USA, so let's do the math from that basis. My math shows that $1 trillion of new tax debt equals about $9,090 per househould. That's a lot more than MY household is willing to donate to our new socialist state, Amerika.

Hope

[ki11ercane]

Again, when looking at the numbers from a "presidential term" standpoint, 1 trillion over 4 years over 300,000,000 people is only $833.33 per year per person. Chump change. It's an average tax hike of 4.15% annually approximately, and that's encompassing everything from personal, energy, state, retail, etc. You as a tax paying individual will probably barely notice it.

There are some boo boos in your ciphering.

First, the US may have 300 million residents, but not 300 million taxypayers. There are *about* 110 million households in the USA, so let's do the math from that basis. My math shows that $1 trillion of new tax debt equals about $9,090 per househould. That's a lot more than MY household is willing to donate to our new socialist state, Amerika.

Hope

1. Yes, I was being optimistic.

2. I was using a lowball figure for U.S. population, which actually sits around 305,000,000 people.

If at 110 million households with an average of 2 taxpayers, that then is 220 million people. One trillion dollars over that figure over 4 years per month comes out to about $95.00 per month.

Again, it's a small sum. If that was Canada with a 10th of the population of the U.S., we'd all be bankrupt. Again, your government knows it's got sheer numbers on it's side, and it's not concerned about getting paid.

The reality also is "willingness" doesn't fit into the U.S. math either. It doesn't require you to be willing. And they are relentless in collecting. Since the government (mine included) can print all the money they want, this means they have limitless resources, both fiscally and legally. They can run you until you die, then go after your relatives. They can't for one second show favorites or cut any one single person quarter. Even if it is only $95.00 per month, if you refuse to pay, they will spend more than that just to get it, because that's what the people empowered them to do.

Again like I have said before, short of armed insurrection, you/me will be bailing out NOT the government, but the shartheads on Wall Street that the government is bailing out. The problem is the citizens are allowing this to happen.

[hope_full]

The problem is the citizens are allowing this to happen.

No, were are NOT allowing that to happen and that's the slow-motion horror of the whole thing. We're screaming at our elected representatives to vote NO and we're deluging them with emails and voicemails and faxes and it DOES NOT SEEM TO MATTER.

That - IMHO - is the worst. They want what they want. What we (the so-called constituency) want is of no moment.

Can someone please tell me how this differs from "taxation without representation"? We just had our taxes raised by thousands of dollars and yet - we had no say in the affair.

[ki11ercane]

The problem is the citizens are allowing this to happen.

No, were are NOT allowing that to happen and that's the slow-motion horror of the whole thing. We're screaming at our elected representatives to vote NO and we're deluging them with emails and voicemails and faxes and it DOES NOT SEEM TO MATTER.

That - IMHO - is the worst. They want what they want. What we (the so-called constituency) want is of no moment.

Can someone please tell me how this differs from "taxation without representation"? We just had our taxes raised by thousands of dollars and yet - we had no say in the affair.

1. This is taxation without representation.

2. The American people as a whole (not the 60,000 people here on this forum and maybe the 600 "active members") will have to begin wholesale taxation revolt. No more income taxes, no more corporate taxes, no more property taxes, no more retail taxes, NO MORE TAXES! This would have to occur on a wholesale scale. At least 20% of the population if not more as a start.

3. American Revolution Part II, complete with domestic firefights, importation embargoes, border and port raids, military base takeovers, wholesale killing, IEDs, guerrilla fighting, etc., and for years and years until your government capitulates, and maybe even possible assistance from a foreign country, may fix this problem. Simply take anything you have read in a history book about the American Revolution and update it to modern times and mix in a little Iraq, Vietnam, and so on. Since the American People have not fought a war on their own domestic soil since the late 1800's and aside from Pearl Harbor, I am thinking a massive majority of the public, even though 200,000,000 Americans own guns, is not ready to go to war with it's government. However, your government IS CONVINCED now that it's people WILL revolt against it's own government. What other reason can you give for your own government to activate it's soldiers on it's own soil other than for protection against domestic insurrection. Your own government knows what it's doing is mutinous to it's own people, and it's loading the deck with aces to prevent and protect against an uprising. It's counting on it to happen.

I am so sad this has happened in your country. Really, I am saddened to the bone.

[deMolay]

Have the odds on this happening gone up at all.

[biofuel13]

Have the odds on this happening gone up at all.

US may lose AAA rating

Well it's starting to look more and more like an imminent bankruptcy for us suckers here in the US.

As our old buddy Rocc used to say: Got Bunker?

[Tyler_JC]

A de jure default of US government debt is impossible so long as the government is still allowed to pay its bills in dollars.

We would need inflation>10%/month before Americans stopped using the dollar as currency.

Ergo, the US can print currency up to the rate of 10% monthly inflation before it would ever need to worry about defaulting on its debt.

How much money constitutes 10% monthly inflation?

At least 10 trillion dollars for fiscal year 2009.

Are we going to have a 10 trillion dollar unfundable deficit?

[IgnoranceIsBliss]

Have the odds on this happening gone up at all.

US may lose AAA rating

Well it's starting to look more and more like an imminent bankruptcy for us suckers here in the US.

As our old buddy Rocc used to say: Got Bunker?

We need more stories like this in the MSM so people will begin to wake the *f* up. I would still bet that most people have no real understanding of the fact that all of these bailouts will greatly raise our taxes down the road. We're so used to thinking that we can get everything without paying.

Polls have recently shown that the vast majority of people here in the US think that 2009 will be a lot better than 2008! I pretty much lost any shred of hope when I saw that one. No clue...we're just getting started folks.

A good friend of mine from college came over to visit today and saw my inventory list of "emergency food' posted on the inside of my cabinet door. She gave me the weirdest look and said " emergency food?" like I was some kind of total wacko. And this is a "rich" college educated woman (with two young children) who works in management for Wachovia Bank!!!!!