[VMarcHart]

...elders are the ones who know how to make it thru tough times...

That being the case, let's deny federal and state pension raises.

[vision-master]

...elders are the ones who know how to make it thru tough times...

That being the case, let's deny federal and state pension raises.

Why do you have a axe to grind on this?

[VMarcHart]

...elders are the ones who know how to make it thru tough times...

That being the case, let's deny federal and state pension raises.

Why do you have a axe to grind on this?

Yes I do. It's tough for everybody, young, middle-age, old, skilled, unskilled, seasoned, newbie, etc. A lot of people are tightening their belts, and so should young 50-something state retirees.

[vision-master]

...elders are the ones who know how to make it thru tough times...

That being the case, let's deny federal and state pension raises.

Why do you have a axe to grind on this?

Yes I do. It's tough for everybody, young, middle-age, old, skilled, unskilled, seasoned, newbie, etc. A lot of people are tightening their belts, and so should young 50-something state retirees.

50-something is not young, especially if one has done hazardous, dangerous or manual labor for the past 25 to 30 years. You will get there soon enough.

[VMarcHart]

50-something is not young, especially if one has done hazardous, dangerous or manual labor for the past 25 to 30 years.

Right, that cross is heavier than everybody else's.

[retiredguy]

Interesting. Confirms my opinion of what is going to happen when we truly have to face lifestyle changes due to peak oil.

Each individual will assess his/her sacrifice in terms of what others sacrifice.

Heinberg's belief in a peaceful powerdown is delusional.

[VMarcHart]

Heinberg's belief in a peaceful powerdown is delusional.

Could you please elaborate on that? Thanks.

[Tyler_JC]

...elders are the ones who know how to make it thru tough times...

That being the case, let's deny federal and state pension raises.

Why do you have a axe to grind on this?

Pensions are some of the most expensive programs offered by state governments.

You can't look at a budget without considering the most expensive programs.

It is only fair that a modest reduction in benefit increases or delay in the retirement age be considered in times of extreme stress. We're cutting school funding and raising taxes, why should pensions be off the table?

What happens if all of society's resources get directed towards benefits for the old instead of infrastructure and education to provide future generations with the ability to survive?

It's an issue of fairness.

[vision-master]

It is only fair that a modest reduction in benefit increases or delay in the retirement age be considered in times of extreme stress. We're cutting school funding and raising taxes, why should pensions be off the table?

All I can tell ya is good luck working private industry.........

[vision-master]

Now this is a GREAT idea.

RALEIGH — Democrats in the U.S. House have been conducting hearings on proposals to confiscate workers’ personal retirement accounts — including 401(k)s and IRAs — and convert them to accounts managed by the Social Security Administration.

Triggered by the financial crisis the past two months, the hearings reportedly were meant to stem losses incurred by many workers and retirees whose 401(k) and IRA balances have been shrinking rapidly.

The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers’ retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration.

http://www.carolinajournal.com/articles ... ml?id=5081

[RonMN]

I have to make a point that I've been trying to make for a long time...and VMarcHart makes the point perfectly clear.

There will be an age war...between the young & the old.

Between the people who have sacrificed for 60 years & the youngens who think bridges built themsleves. The tax-man will see to that!

When asked to pay double-tripple-quadrouple the FICA taxes...the workers can't afford to live...while being asked to pay more for the older folks who have given all they have to give. Then pay more in sales Tax and Property Tax...ad nauseum...Michigan just started a "solvency tax" meaning they are broke, so they'll take from you.

I just pray that this doesn't end up to be a war of attrition...because the youngens are unarmed, therefor they'll lose

[Tyler_JC]

This is why you should never expect the government to make good on its promises.

They are liars and crooks. They are too busy bailing out their friends in the banking industry to rebuild the crumbling schools and bridges. They are too busy blowing up other countries to invest in this one.

Any time they have a surplus, they spend it. Any time they need more money, they tax us to death for it. Once we vote for tax cuts, they just borrow the money instead and pass the buck down to the next generation.

Why anyone would trust these monsters to do anything other than rob and plunder is beyond me.

I'm a conservative not because I trust that individuals will always make the right decisions. I'm a conservative because I know that governments usually make the wrong ones.

[ReverseEngineer]

I'm a conservative not because I trust that individuals will always make the right decisions. I'm a conservative because I know that governments usually make the wrong ones.

Since its all Conservative Governments that have dropped us in this mess from Nixon and Reagan to the Bushes, just how does Conservatism protect anyone from the excesses of Government? Did you not NOTICE this hasn't worked? You still believe in this stuff? Yeesh.

Reverse Engineer

[RonMN]

RE Wrote:
Since its all Conservative Governments that have dropped us in this mess from Nixon and Reagan to the Bushes, just how does Conservatism protect anyone from the excesses of Government?

Funny how you didn't mention the clintons or the carters...Do you remember the American hostages held in tehran? or is that not a big deal to you?

How about Clinton signing the repeal of the glass-steagal act in 1999 (which opened the door for banks to invest in mortgage backed securities)? Or when Bush (W) tried to (in august of 2001) get a full accounting of fannie & freddie, yet hit a brick wall against schumer, dodd, and barney frank.

Funny how you leave those items out of the discussion.

[Tyler_JC]

I do not consider Bush to be a Conservative.

He has grossly violated the conservative principles of limited government and non-interventionist foreign policy.

Was Hitler a Socialist? He was a member of the National Socialist Party. Does that make him a Socialist?

Was Stalin a Communist?

Just because someone decides to give himself a label doesn't mean they even remotely resemble the meaning behind that label.

[retiredguy]

Just want to make a point about pensions. They fall under the rubric of social contracts.

Sure a pension is a benefit, but if a person works for a company for 30-40 years with the promise of a pension, that means he/she is contributing part of his/her income to that pension with the understanding that that pension will support said person after he/she reaches retirement age.

Pensions can be reduced, that's part of the contract. But simply to change the rules after one has dedicated a good chunk of one's life to a company, is a serious violation of a social contract.

While I agree that a Mad Max scenario would render all social contracts meaningless, simply voiding social contracts on an ad hoc basis would almost certainly make Mad Max a inevitable.

A society cannot exist if social contracts can be voided ad hoc.

[ReverseEngineer]

I do not consider Bush to be a Conservative.

He has grossly violated the conservative principles of limited government and non-interventionist foreign policy.

Was Hitler a Socialist? He was a member of the National Socialist Party. Does that make him a Socialist?

Was Stalin a Communist?

Just because someone decides to give himself a label doesn't mean they even remotely resemble the meaning behind that label.

The question would be, did you vote for him?

Anyhow, Hitler was a Socialist, of the Fascist variety. Socialized the wealth of the many for the benefit of the few. Stalin was a Communist, just a particularly ruthless and corrupt one.

Bush ran under the Conservative Agenda, Family Values, Less Taxes, Less Government, blah blah. And we GOT less government, in the form of less regulation of the banking industry. We got an evisceration of Social Welfare programs in favor of Corporate Welfare. If the conservatives had got their way, we would have dumped all of Social Security into the Stock Market already.

Conservativeshave a recidivist outlook, we need to go back to some mythical period in the 1950s and live like Ozzie and Harriet. Sorry, there isn't the Oil to live that way anymore. There are bigger fish to fry here than Conservative versus Liberal ideology, like just HOW will we ameliorate and make fair a spin down off enormous overshoot and waste of the planet's resources by Greedy corporate fascists, who coopted and used "Conservatives" to get their agenda and centralize all the wealth of the world into the hands of the few?

You were used my friend, and you don't even understand how. That is sad.

Reverse Engineer

[Revi]

The whole idea of a claim on future resources is a little ridiculous anyway.

Lets say you are a middle class passenger on the Titanic and you have a piece of paper that is supposed to represent a seat on a lifeboat. Do you think that any of the upper class passengers is going to give up his or her seat for you?

Notice I didn't even mention the lower class passengers. They are already locking them below the decks.

I'd say that our chances of collecting social security in 10 or 12 years are about the same as a GM employee's chances of collecting their full pension.

[Tyler_JC]

No government pension will ever be eliminated completely.

Even the Argentine government continued to make good on its obligations.

The question is what % of the real value of your pension will you receive?

If real inflation runs 6% a year and your pension only increases by 4% a year, is the government fulfilling its obligation?

Take a $3,000 per month pension that increases by 4% a year but real inflation runs 6%.

4% annual increase paid out over 20 years: $1,072,011

6% annual increase paid out over 20 years: $1,324,281

Difference? More than $250,000!

[vision-master]

I have to make a point that I've been trying to make for a long time...and VMarcHart makes the point perfectly clear.

There will be an age war...between the young & the old.

Between the people who have sacrificed for 60 years & the youngens who think bridges built themsleves. The tax-man will see to that!

When asked to pay double-tripple-quadrouple the FICA taxes...the workers can't afford to live...while being asked to pay more for the older folks who have given all they have to give. Then pay more in sales Tax and Property Tax...ad nauseum...Michigan just started a "solvency tax" meaning they are broke, so they'll take from you.

I just pray that this doesn't end up to be a war of attrition...because the youngens are unarmed, therefor they'll lose

I younger ppl are screwed.

They will do it to themselves.

To late guy's. I got onto a lifeboat while the getting was good. Now being age 55+, time is on my side. I bailed out when the getting was good. I'll tip a few for ya......... by the fireplace.