[mos6507]

As everyone knows, there is a disconnect between the pursuit of efficiency with capitalism. If people want foods like beef that require a lot of land to produce, farms will be more than happy to produce it whether or not it drives up other commodities.

Food production will not begin to abandon certain foods to maximize calories per acre until laws are imposed on them to do so. That's not likely to happen until the US has already ceased food exports and food costs area already dangerously high for americans.

[mos6507]

"OK, let's get one thing out of the way. The United States and any other country for that matter is under no obligation to "save" any other country."

You've obviously never heard of the Carter doctrine.

We imposed that on ourselves for our own benefit. Likewise, if the Saudis wanted to stop exporting oil, they have every right, regardless of what it would do to the world. Any dependency of a country on the commodities of another is a point of weakness. International trade is a privilege.

[davep]

"OK, let's get one thing out of the way. The United States and any other country for that matter is under no obligation to "save" any other country."

You've obviously never heard of the Carter doctrine.

We imposed that on ourselves for our own benefit. Likewise, if the Saudis wanted to stop exporting oil, they have every right, regardless of what it would do to the world. Any dependency of a country on the commodities of another is a point of weakness. International trade is a privilege.

Isn't that a bit naive? The American government has been busy passing bilateral trade agreements with countries that they can push through due to their strength. They demonise those who may try to take ownership of their own resources.

[3aidlillahi]

That's a very simplistic take on things. If we feed the corn to, say, chickens, we get far more protein per unit input than if we fed it to cows. If we ate the stuff directly (or grew other stuff that is less damaging) we would have far more available.

That's not what I'm saying. The point I'm trying to make, at least partially, is that if you don't get rid of the meat eating (specifically beef and other "inefficient" meats) then you get nowhere. You'll still be left with having to come up with food for that meat to be produced. Get rid of meat completely and we have enough food for the world over.

Since Obama doesn't want to get rid of beef but still have corn ethanol, then it's lose-lose. You can't have both without taking food from someone.

Edit: I think I missed the fine details in the beginning of this debate. You brought that to my attention.

[davep]

That's a very simplistic take on things. If we feed the corn to, say, chickens, we get far more protein per unit input than if we fed it to cows. If we ate the stuff directly (or grew other stuff that is less damaging) we would have far more available.

That's not what I'm saying. The point I'm trying to make, at least partially, is that if you don't get rid of the meat eating (specifically beef and other "inefficient" meats) then you get nowhere. You'll still be left with having to come up with food for that meat to be produced. Get rid of meat completely and we have enough food for the world over.

Since Obama doesn't want to get rid of beef but still have corn ethanol, then it's lose-lose. You can't have both without taking food from someone.

Ok, fair enough. I wouldn't consider ethanol as anything but an exercise in lobbying placation under current circumstances.

[threadbear]

In the dirt lanes of Chitungwiza, the Mugarwes, a family of firewood hawkers, bake a loaf of bread, their only meal, with 11 slices for the six of them. All devour two slices except the youngest, age 2. He gets just one.

Zimbabwe's population crisis is getting solved at least.

So long to the breadbasket of Africa. Amazing that they used to export food.

Are you aware that they have been subject to years of drought? It's not ALL govt mismanagement. That goes for most of Africa.

[VMarcHart]

...if you don't get rid of the meat eating (specifically beef and other "inefficient" meats) then you get nowhere. You'll still be left with having to come up with food for that meat to be produced. Get rid of meat completely and we have enough food for the world over.

Since Obama doesn't want to get rid of beef but still have corn ethanol, then it's lose-lose. You can't have both without taking food from someone.

Is there anybody who doesn't get this?

[3aidlillahi]

Are you aware that they have been subject to years of drought? It's not ALL govt mismanagement. That goes for most of Africa.

Sure. I don't think I'd ever said it was all their problem but they certainly didn't help the situation with their redistribution and fiscal/monetary policies.

I don't even mention the Zimbabwean government in that post you quote.

[mos6507]

Obama doesn't want corn ethanol. Whenever he talks about ethanol, he refers to it as 'advanced biofuels' and often name-drops terms like cellulosic and algae. He's tolerating corn ethanol as a bridge to advanced ethanol, and it keeps the lobbyists happy in the meantime. So how long we muddle around with corn ethanol is the big question. If we're still making no headway on moving to better feedstocks and increaseing EROEI within the next 4 years, I'd be highly critical. But I fail to see how Obama is going to have people starve by forcing scale out of corn ethanol when his cabinet is full of scientists who are fully qualified to tell him such a move would be stupid.

Nobody really knows how effective ethanol of any sort can be. I'm rather pessimistic about the whole thing because I feel that we're going to need every square inch of arable land to feed our overshot population so the two will eventually (keyword eventually) be on a collision course. There are still measures that may work in the short to medium term that might be better to pursue while still viable rather than trying to change too much too soon.

Any discussion of huge changes to what gets grown and what people eat is going to face a lot of resistance. People are not going to suddenly abandon beef or other meats (or appreciate it being banned) just because it will increase the carrying capacity of US agriculture. The US is not a dictatorship and even petty things like banning incandescents is facing a backlash on the basis of limiting the free market. So people have to put away their sliderules and face practical reality.

[deMolay]

Catholic News
Out of food, Zimbabweans eating cow dung
Political leadership needed to overcome crisis
Photo Credit: Caritas International

Harare, Dec 10, 2008 / 08:01 pm (CNA).- Caritas Internationalis is warning that the crisis in Zimbabwe is so grave that people facing crushing food shortages are mixing cow dung with their food.

With pressure continuing to mount on President Mugabe to relinquish his hold on power, Zimbabweans are suffering the consequences of his government’s policies.

Besides the lack of food, people are also suffering a cholera epidemic and crippling hyperinflation.

Caritas Internationalis Secretary General Lesley-Anne Knight reports that "people in Zimbabwe are dropping dead on the streets from Cholera. They’ve witnessed people mixing cow dung with what’s left of their food to make it go further. This is poverty at its most dehumanizing."

Caritas plans to ramp up its aid operations across the country with hunger likely to increase after poor harvests.

A Caritas survey in October found 70 to 90 percent of households going hungry and the remainder on the brink of starvation. At least 5.1 million people are facing starvation out of a population of 13 million people. Additionally, nearly 14,000 cases of Cholera have been reported.

Knight also commented on the political crisis, saying, "Zimbabwe’s political impasse can continue no longer. An effective government that can rectify the policies that have put the country into this position must be established.

"The international community must maintain the pressure on Zimbabwe for an end to this crisis. We must also prepare ourselves for the implosion of the country and the catastrophe that will mean in terms of human suffering across the region."

Zimbabweans have faced discrimination in South Africa and other neighboring countries and Knight warned that they "must address the xenophobia directed at Zimbabwean refugees in their own countries."

"These are very challenging conditions for aid agencies to operate, but Caritas remains committed to delivering aid to the country in its hour of need," she said.

Merged with THE Zimbabwe Thread (merged).-FL

[WyoDutch]

Well.... How about if the Catholic Church sells some of the billions of dollars in property, artwork, investments, etc.. that it holds, in order to feed those folks?

[deMolay]

I think they already have been. As much as it is popular to belittle faith based charities, many of them are the only ones helping. Maybe a good question should be also why haven't the Africans helped out or put an end to Mugabe's horror show.

[Ayoob]

Well.... How about if the Catholic Church sells some of the billions of dollars in property, artwork, investments, etc.. that it holds, in order to feed those folks?

I bet you could get your local Catholic church to match your own donations to alleviate hunger in Zimbabwe. Put your money together and walk down, I bet they'd help.

[BigTex]

Maybe the good people of Haiti could send them a shipment of their famous "Cooking With Dirt" recipe book.




"Why eat cow dung when you can eat dirtcakes?"

[ReverseEngineer]

Well.... How about if the Catholic Church sells some of the billions of dollars in property, artwork, investments, etc.. that it holds, in order to feed those folks?

The Catholic Church has most of its money tied up in Hedge Funds that have suspended redemptions. They can't get money out of the market to help Zimbabweans, they can't even get enough out to pay the Church Rent. The Vatican is whisper thin close to being Foreclosed on.

I realize that wraping your mind around the concept of ALL money being valueless is quite difficult, but here you have it in front of you. Figure it out for yourself, its getting old for me to repeat the arguments now.

Reverse Engineer

[emailking]

Maybe the good people of Haiti could send them a shipment of their famous "Cooking With Dirt" recipe book.

That is horrible. This is not the slightest bit funny.

[deMolay]

I guess they also have a plague of dysentry because of a lack of clean water. Kinda of underscores the necessity, even if you live in a city of having some way of sterilizing drinking water that doesn't require electricity.

[Nickel]

Maybe the good people of Haiti could send them a shipment of their famous "Cooking With Dirt" recipe book.

That is horrible. This is not the slightest bit funny.

Yeah, he's a real cunny funt, isn't he?

[Nickel]

I don't understand. Can't anybody get to this guy? What, is he made of neutronium or something? He's a mortal man. A stupid, arrogant, nation-self-immolating old man. Somebody in that country better bloody well stand up before no one has the strength.

[deMolay]

Did you see Mugabe on TV, saying Zimbabwe is mine. I think maybe he is nuts.