[thuja]

Its not hostility- its arguing and debating meaningful topics...which is a good thing. And should be done more in public. The Brits and New Yorkers do it great. West Coasters? Not so much.

Lets argue- o'course I don't mean flame...but passionate debate is needed and is healthy...

[ReverseEngineer]

Its not hostility- its arguing and debating meaningful topics...which is a good thing. And should be done more in public. The Brits and New Yorkers do it great. West Coasters? Not so much. Lets argue- o'course I don't mean flame...but passionate debate is needed and is healthy...

Thuja, at last we agree on something! I am of course originally from NYC Let the debate rage on!
Reverse Engineer

[Ludi]

Its not hostility- its arguing and debating meaningful topics...which is a good thing. And should be done more in public. The Brits and New Yorkers do it great. West Coasters? Not so much. Lets argue- o'course I don't mean flame...but passionate debate is needed and is healthy...

I just don't know how I would start up such a conversation in the grocery store. How do you do it?

[Revi]

Better not to get into a heated discussion at the grocery store. I have lots of friends with political opinions very different from mine. We don't talk politics.

Zimbabwe is a product of a closed society.

The fact that we can have differences and still live together shows that we are not there yet.

[Ludi]

Most people in my area have extremely different political and philosophical opinions from mine. I think it might be quite easy to alienate them with a "serious discussion." What would it accomplish that's positive, I wonder?

[Rob0126]

I wonder if everyone in America realize that by printing all of this money, they are actually making the money in our pockets and bank accounts worth-less?

So in effect, the printing of all this money is stealing money from all of us Americans that work for a living.

Just thought Id get that straight.

[mos6507]

Perhaps people should talk about such things more openly IRL rather than reserving it for the internet.

So we'll be more hostile?

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that. Why anyone would want to increase hostility and anger in open society is beyond me.

That's just assuming everyone you come across is going to disagree with your politics. How are we going to ever find other doomers IRL if we never even broach the topic? I remember reading in a past thread about people overhearing others mope about doom in the store. The doom is lingering under the surface. People keep up a facade.

[mos6507]

Most people in my area have extremely different political and philosophical opinions from mine. I think it might be quite easy to alienate them with a "serious discussion." What would it accomplish that's positive, I wonder?

There was a time before the internet or the printing press when the only way ideas could transfer was through people talking to eachother. It's not such a terrible thing.

[seahorse2]

You heard it here first, but now the infamous Marc Faber is saying the US will become Zimbabwe.

US Inflation Could Hit 200%: Dr. Doom

The US risks being hit by Zimbabwe-style hyperinflation and there are signs that the world's biggest economy risks turning into a banana republic, Marc Faber, author of the Gloom, Doom & Boom report, told CNBC's "Asia Squawk Box."

"In the US, we have a totally new school, and it’s called the Zimbabwe school," Faber said. "And it’s founded by one of the great leaders of this world, Mr Robert Mugabe, that has managed to totally impoverish his own country. And that is the monetary policy the US is pursuing."

The government's increased intervention in the economy is likely to slow down economic growth because history shows that every time the private sector shrinks to make way for the government sector, the economy suffers, he said.

Asked whether the US risked being faced with 200 percent inflation, Faber answered: "Well, not yet. Not yet. But I think eventually. If I look at government debt in the US, and debt in general, I think the only way they will not default physically on their debt is to inflate."

The Federal Reserve's policy of printing money and the government's intervention in the economy might undermine the US's economic and political clout, Faber warned.

"Well, I wrote two years ago a report entitled 'Is America becoming a banana republic?' And there are some features that characterize banana republics- totalitarian states, very strong government intervention into the economy, and the polarization of wealth," he said.

"And we have all these trends occurring in the US. We are not yet there. And in theory it could be reversed, but I doubt it will be," Faber added.

Because of these factors, US government and corporate bonds, including that of CNBC parent General Electric [GE 11.14 0.29 (+2.67%) ], should be downgraded, he said.

"Yeh, I think GE should be a junk bond. But I also think the US government should be junk," Faber said, adding: "I don’t pay much attention to rating agencies. The rating agencies have totally failed over the last 3-4 years to identify sick companies."
© 2009 CNBC.com

CNBC

[seahorse2]

Looks like parts of LA are already importing the Zimbabwe model.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4804882n

[seahorse2]

From Detroit to Zimbabwe. Be sure and check out the link for the photo of the body in ice, that everyone just ignored.

Wednesday, January 28, 2009
Charlie LeDuff on Detroit
Frozen in indifference: Life goes on around body found in vacant warehouse
Charlie LeDuff / The Detroit News

DETROIT -- This city has not always been a gentle place, but a series of events over the past few, frigid days causes one to wonder how cold the collective heart has grown.

It starts with a phone call made by a man who said his friend found a dead body in the elevator shaft of an abandoned building on the city's west side.

"He's encased in ice, except his legs, which are sticking out like Popsicle sticks," the caller phoned to tell this reporter.

Advertisement

"Why didn't your friend call the police?"

"He was trespassing and didn't want to get in trouble," the caller replied. As it happens, the caller's friend is an urban explorer who gets thrills rummaging through and photographing the ruins of Detroit. It turns out that this explorer last week was playing hockey with a group of other explorers on the frozen waters that had collected in the basement of the building. None of the men called the police, the explorer said. They, in fact, continued their hockey game.

Before calling the police, this reporter went to check on the tip, skeptical of a hoax. Sure enough, in the well of the cargo elevator, two feet jutted out above the ice. Closer inspection revealed that the rest of the body was encased in 2-3 feet of ice, the body prostrate, suspended into the ice like a porpoising walrus.

The hem of a beige jacket could be made out, as could the cuffs of blue jeans. The socks were relatively clean and white. The left shoe was worn at the heel but carried fresh laces. Adding to the macabre and incongruous scene was a pillow that gently propped up the left foot of the corpse. It looked almost peaceful.

What happened to this person, one wonders? Murder in Motown is a definite possibility. Perhaps it was death by alcoholic stupor. Perhaps the person was crawling around in the elevator shaft trying to retrieve some metal that he could sell at a scrap yard. In any event, there the person was. Stone-cold dead.
A symbol of decay

The building is known as the Roosevelt Warehouse, once belonging to the Detroit Public Schools as a book repository. Located near 14th Street and Michigan Avenue, the warehouse burned in 1987 and caused something of a scandal as thousands of books, scissors, footballs and crayons were left to rot while Detroit schoolchildren -- some of the poorest children in the country -- went without supplies.

The building was eventually sold to Matty Moroun, the trucking and real estate mogul who is worth billions of dollars and is the largest private property owner in the state of Michigan. Among other properties, Moroun owns the decrepit Michigan Central Rail Depot that squats directly next to the warehouse. The train station has become the symbol of Detroit's decay. Like much of his property in southwestern Detroit, Moroun's warehouse and the train station are gaping sores.

The warehouse is so easily accessible, a person in a wheelchair could get in with little effort. There are holes in the fence and in the side entrance. The elevator shaft is wide open. It appears no one has ever tried to close the bay doors.

A colony of homeless men live in the warehouse. Wednesday morning a few fires were burning inside oil drums. Scott Ruben, 38, huddled under filthy blankets not 20 paces from the elevator shaft.

"Yeah, I seen him," Ruben said. The snow outside howled. The heat from the can warped the landscape of rotting buildings and razor wire.

Did he know who the dead person was?

"I don't recognize him from his shoes."

Did he call the police?

"No, I figured someone else did," he said.

"There's lots of people coming through here with cameras and cell phones. I don't got no phone. I don't got no quarter. Things is tight around here."

His shack mate, Kenneth Williams, 47, returned at that point with an armload of wood.

"Yeah, he's been down there since last month at least."

He was asked if he called the police.

"No, I thought it was a dummy myself," he said unconvincingly. Besides, Williams said, there were more pressing issues like keeping warm and finding something to eat.

"You got a couple bucks?" he asked.
Waiting for a response

There are at least 19,000 homeless people in Detroit, by some estimates. Put another way, more than 1 in 50 people here are homeless.

The human problem is so bad, and the beds so few, that some shelters in the city provide only a chair. The chair is yours as long as you sit in it. Once you leave, the chair is reassigned.

Thousands of down-on-their-luck adults do nothing more with their day than clutch onto a chair. This passes for normal in some quarters of the city.

"I hate that musical chair game," Ruben said. He said he'd rather live next to a corpse.

Convinced that it was indeed a body, this reporter made a discreet call to a police officer.

"Aw, just give 911 a call," the cop said. "We'll be called eventually."

A call was placed to 911. A woman answered. She was told it was a reporter calling. The operator tried to follow, but seemed confused. "Where is this building?"

She promised to contact the appropriate authorities.

Twenty minutes or so went by when 911 called the newsroom. This time it was a man.

"Where's this building?"

It was explained to him, as was the elevator shaft and the tomb of ice.

"Bring a jack-hammer," this reporter suggested.

"That's what we do," he said.

Nearly 24 hours went by. The elevator shaft was still a gaping wound. There was no crime scene tape. The homeless continued to burn their fires. City schoolchildren still do not have the necessary books to learn. The train station continues to crumble. Too many homicides still go unsolved.

After another two calls to 911 on Wednesday afternoon (one of which was disconnected), the Detroit Fire Department called and agreed to meet nearby.

Capt. Emma McDonald was on the scene.

"Every time I think I've seen it all, I see this," she said.

And with that they went about the work of recovering a person who might otherwise be waiting for the warm winds of spring.

You can reach Charlie LeDuff at (313) 222-2620 or [email protected].

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090128/METRO08/901280491

[Ayoob]

I would not use the homeless population in LA and Detroit to predict the future success of America. Those populations are where they were 30 years ago and haven't changed much.

[seahorse2]

They are growing in numbers, poverty in the US is spreading

[vision-master]

EDAR (Everyone Deserves A Roof) is a 501(c)(3) charity that provides unique mobile shelters to those living on the streets all around us. Each EDAR is a four-wheeled mobile unit which carries belongings and facilitates recycling during the day and which unfolds into a special, framed tent-like sleeping enclosure with a bed at night.

[Ayoob]

It's apples and oranges. These people are permanently satisfied to sleep on the sidewalk and beg. There's no way to lift them out of poverty. It simply cannot be done. That is the life they chose.

Some people cannot be helped. They don't want the same things you want and would walk away from your prosperity to escape the responsibility of maintaining it all.

The poverty of the middle class who lose everything is an entirely different animal.

[vision-master]

It's apples and oranges. These people are permanently satisfied to sleep on the sidewalk and beg. There's no way to lift them out of poverty. It simply cannot be done. That is the life they chose.

Some people cannot be helped. They don't want the same things you want and would walk away from your prosperity to escape the responsibility of maintaining it all.

The poverty of the middle class who lose everything is an entirely different animal.

They chose?

How about your wealth, you were born into it Buckwheat.

[seahorse2]

Apparently, it hasn't always been this way, because neighborhoods are being abandoned now in Detroit. See link for video.

No One's Home
Neighborhood Abandoned

Last Edited: Friday, 13 Feb 2009, 11:32 PM EST
Created On: Friday, 13 Feb 2009, 11:28 PM EST

* Brad Edwards

DETROIT - All this week, we've brought you stories from people who say they've been ignored by police. Even Detroit Mayor Ken Cockrel, Jr. admitted there's a huge problem.

This is the story of an entire neighborhood disappearing because of that very issue. In this video report, FOX 2's Brad Edwards takes you to a place where the boarded up homes now outnumber the people who live there.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/no_ones_home_neighborhood

[Ayoob]

It's apples and oranges. These people are permanently satisfied to sleep on the sidewalk and beg. There's no way to lift them out of poverty. It simply cannot be done. That is the life they chose.

Some people cannot be helped. They don't want the same things you want and would walk away from your prosperity to escape the responsibility of maintaining it all.

The poverty of the middle class who lose everything is an entirely different animal.

They chose?

How about your wealth, you were born into it Buckwheat.

They do, they choose homelessness and poverty over responsibility. I guess you don't know those people as well as I do.

You might ask them some time. Oh wait! You don't actually know any of them.

[Ayoob]

Apparently, it hasn't always been this way, because neighborhoods are being abandoned now in Detroit. See link for video.

No One's Home
Neighborhood Abandoned

Last Edited: Friday, 13 Feb 2009, 11:32 PM EST
Created On: Friday, 13 Feb 2009, 11:28 PM EST

* Brad Edwards

DETROIT - All this week, we've brought you stories from people who say they've been ignored by police. Even Detroit Mayor Ken Cockrel, Jr. admitted there's a huge problem.

This is the story of an entire neighborhood disappearing because of that very issue. In this video report, FOX 2's Brad Edwards takes you to a place where the boarded up homes now outnumber the people who live there.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/no_ones_home_neighborhood

Well, that's new. Maybe I spoke too soon about Detroit. The LA part of that story takes place in an area I know pretty well, so that's what I was thinking about when I responded.

[careinke]

WOW, a glimpse into our future. I guess Mad Max it is.