[vision-master]

Without unions what power does the comman J6P have?

t.
J6P's fundamental power is to consent to being governed or not. In the individual, J6P has no power. In the collective, the J6Ps have all the power. It's just whether they chooses to exercise it or not.

Yeah right. Try organize a bunch of sheeple ppl.

The American Medical Association is one of the strongest UNIONS around my dear.

[thor]

J6P used to have power in the collective, but multinationals took that power away by moving jobs overseas where no such unions exist. That's globalism at work.

[vision-master]

J6P used to have power in the collective, but multinationals took that power away by moving jobs overseas where no such unions exist. That's globalism at work.

Yup, J6P is left out in the cold now.

[smallpoxgirl]

Yeah right. Try organize a bunch of sheeple ppl.

Exactly my point. J6P doesn't exert power because J6P is docily inebriated on cheap food, cheap entertainment, and cheap beer. The first step to getting power is to want power.

The American Medical Association is one of the strongest UNIONS around my dear.

Not really. More a cartel, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this discussion.

[vision-master]

[deMolay]

Many links and explanations. From the budget watchdog group. http://www.federalbudget.com/

[mattduke]

Buy gold.

[Sixstrings]

Funny thing is that if Bernenke raises interest rates even .25%, all those "cuts" get wiped out due to higher interest on the national debt.

Oh well, I don't really mind they're just going to extend and pretend as long as possible. Because when the sh*t does go down, it's gonna be ugly. Inflation is already creeping up.. if they want to contain in, the Fed will *have* to raise rates. But then that screws over the .gov with the debt interest they have to pay.

On the other hand.. if they let inflation go unchecked or even allow hyperinflation, that very nicely reduces real entitlement payouts. Granny still gets her SS check, but bread will cost three times as much. But how can the Fed do that when their mission is to contain inflation..

In the end, I think they'll choose hyperinflation. It's the only way to take Granny's check while also devaluing the effective dollar value of our debt and deficits.

[vision-master]

For those under the age of 55, get ready for Medicare and Social Security cuts.

[Outcast_Searcher]

What is so sad to me, is that if we as a society had the guts to insist on leaders who would truly face the problem and have us ALL pay the price -- this could still (IMO) be fixed.

And it's simple.

1). Raise taxes somewhat. Raise EVERYBODY'S taxes and stop the class warfare games. I'd prefer a simple tax code with flatter rates -- and cut out at least 99% of the preferential deductions. Folks who make little pay a little or none. Folks who make a LOT -- pay a LOT -- but not at a confiscatory high rate.

2). Lower spending somewhat. Lower EVERYBODY'S benefits and programs and stop (again) the class warfare games.

3). This would need to be buttressed by some sort of a balanced budget (I prefer a surplus budget) MANDATE -- to prevent the same malarkey that made this mess from cranking back up at every opportunity.

----------------

Now, I know I will be roundly attacked by basically everybody for this proposal -- fine. However, it has some major real-world advantages:

1). It gives EVERYONE skin in the game.
2). It is a REAL compromise.
3). At the end of the day, it could actually work.

It does things the left, the right, and at least large chunks of the center won't like. So what? That's what compromise and facing our problems will require.

---------

And the details matter far less than the concepts here. Where we stand now, both sides are so hostile, dug in, and unreasonable, that I don't see a SUFFICIENT compromise being made short of something like this.

So go ahead. Flame away. Tell me I'm the AntiChrist for proposing we cut the military and PBS. Until you propose something better that actually solves the problem -- you're just flapping your gums.

[AgentR11]

For those under the age of 55, get ready for Medicare and Social Security cuts.

Personally, I've never been under any illusions. My generation (in our 40s now)... we'll be working till we drop dead.

SS - squat
Medicare - squat
IRA/401k - confiscated / unprivatised / inflation devalued
Home/RE values - crushed by lack of capable buyers

Retirement plans:
I can control my post age 60 costs.
I can keep working.
I can refuse high-dollar medical care.

I see no reason I should put any faith in some magical reality that can not happen.

[Outcast_Searcher]

For those under the age of 55, get ready for Medicare and Social Security cuts.

Retirement plans:
I can control my post age 60 costs.
I can keep working.
I can refuse high-dollar medical care.

I see no reason I should put any faith in some magical reality that can not happen.

Everything you say is perfectly reasonable. I wish more people would think that way. I especially commend you for the thoughtful and moral willingness to even CONSIDER refusing high dollar medical care. A HUGE proportion of medical costs are consumed in the final year of life -- imagine how many of these are when the patient has no hope of recovery.

To the extent such expenditures consume resources that could cure MANY relatively young sick people -- this expenditure to fight a hopeless situation is, IMO, increasingly immoral.

...

The one fly in the ointment that bugs me (as a general concept) in your retirement plan is the confidence that one can keep working (the implication is as long as you like).

Genetics plays a HUGE role in our health, especially as we get older. It's largely a matter of luck. I believe a LARGE percentage of people will be physically, mentally, and/or emotionally unable to continue to compete in a highly competitive and scarce job market as they age. Thus, it's self-deception that we can keep working "as long as we like" -- as though that is a reliable retirement supplement. For MANY, it most certainly will not be.

[mattduke]

For those under the age of 55, get ready for Medicare and Social Security cuts.

The best and most productive young people will just leave, that is until they construct the freedom wall.

[AgentR11]

The one fly in the ointment that bugs me (as a general concept) in your retirement plan is the confidence that one can keep working (the implication is as long as you like).

Its only a fly if you only read half the sentence, and "like" has nothing to do with it. There's really no sense in pretending that end of life is some elegant, dignified, gentle departure, its brutal and destructive, and modern medicine's obsession with life extension at the cost of life improvement makes it much worse.

Work till we drop dead means exactly that, I expect, and am not alarmed by the notion, that I'll likely die a few weeks or maybe a few months after I am no longer able to work. Now, that doesn't mean work like I do now, I have much greater costs, commitments, and responsibilities now, than I will at 60. At 60, work may mean sitting quietly in my little, paid off, house, reading financial statements and making a trade every once in a while when I find a real bargain, or I may have bailed to the farm, spending my work time in a more horticultural way. Either way, I won't have a mortgage pmt, a car pmt, school tuition, not much of an electric or gas bill, etc. I'll have taxes and communications costs of course which will be my primary concerns, I won't accept a script for anything that is significantly expensive (I already do this now...), so don't give me that "medical" thing. 20yr old, cheap generic drugs are perfectly fine for this ole boy.

continue to compete in a highly competitive and scarce job

There is more than one way to compete. Our current instinct is to try and compete by reaching for ever higher standards of performance. A future instinct may be more along the lines of doing modest, but reliable performance at a professional task for $6 (US2011) / hr.

Thus, it's self-deception that we can keep working "as long as we like" -- as though that is a reliable retirement supplement. For MANY, it most certainly will not be.

Put bluntly, when you stop being able to work, dieing is OK. Once dead, you need not be concerned about "retirement".

I use 60, but 58 is my personal inflection point, others may need significant income beyond that, but that is something they have to balance for themselves. I'd be pretty terrified if I had to maintain significant expense obligations to 70; but we all make choices, and some are less risk averse than me.

nb... "reliable retirement supplement"; considering that there will be NO reliable retirement primary source at that time, I'm not sure what "supplement" is supposed to mean. I expect a SS check. I expect to be able to buy one loaf of bread a month with it. I expect a medicare card, I expect the pharmacist to giggle when I show it to her. I expect to look at my liquid accounts and reminisce upon the days when those amounts were worth the effort to manage.

No, I don't think people have quite grasped exactly how deep in the hole we are.

[Keith_McClary]

A HUGE proportion of medical costs are consumed in the final year of life -- imagine how many of these are when the patient has no hope of recovery.

To the extent such expenditures consume resources that could cure MANY relatively young sick people -- this expenditure to fight a hopeless situation is, IMO, increasingly immoral.

We need some kind of PANEL to decide when to end these hopeless expenditures.

[Novus]

The easiest way for government to cut back on medical expenditures is really simple but they won't do it. Just get rid of 911 rescue service. People will call this solution heartless because they feel it saves lives when in reality all it does is prolong death. The healthy person who broke their leg in a fall is not going to die if he doesn't receive medical treatment for 30 minutes or an hour. The heart attack and stroke patients will however meet their makers without speedy 911 service. It is not so much that the 911 service costs a tonn of money but that it allows people who are in the last days, weeks, months of their lives to live long enough to incur the lions share of the nation's medical expenses. If these patients don't live those medical expenses would never happen. There is no need for expensive medical panels decide people's fates.

[vision-master]

My, my such fantasies we live with.

[Oakley]

The idea that people can retire from work and then consume what others produce must have come about with the advent of "energy slaves". As the "energy slaves" disappear the only choices left are to get some real life human slaves (taxpayers) or keep on working to support one's self.

At one time in history families took care of their own parents or grandparents as the elderly faced the often inevitable decline in their ability to care for themselves. With the contraction of the economic pie resulting from fewer and fewer "energy slaves", government will be more and more unreliable as a source of sustenance for anyone other than those occupying the seats of power. Social security, medicare and medicade will go, simply because they are Ponzi schemes where the first person in line is the beneficiary of what is taken from the last several people in line; there is no "fund" set aside to pay you the benefits you have been promised by politicians clamoring for your votes. It is highly probable that the entire federal government will collapse, just as did the USSR and anyone holding their debt instruments or waiting on their promises of cradle to grave care will be left holding an empty bag.

This is getting more and more interesting as it unfolds. The possibility of compromise is unlikely because the dimensions of the problem are so large and the personalities of those pulling each end of the rope are of an uncompromising nature.

[vision-master]

I see you all have been trained into a belief system - You are in for a rude awakening, glad I'll be dead and gone by then. Enjoy yer later years of declining health. Suicide should become more and more popular in years to come....

[AgentR11]

VM... you are being overly vague about to whom and what you are objecting. When I read your comments I come to the conclusion that you believe my retirement resources will actually provide a retirement, and I'll live quietly and comfortably into my 80s.