[Denny]

One theme that keeps coming up is that the United States will break up in the event of the dislocations that come from peak oil. But, I am not clear why this could ever be a useful thing to consider. Isn't the diversity of the economy one of America's greatest strengths , a function of its large geography?

The mosaic of the United States seems to be perhaps its greatest strength as it faces adversity. Each region has its strengths and its needs. United, it seems by common sense, everybody is better off, more secure. When one aspect of the economy is down, another can be up, and that is a stabilizing factor. So, more than ever before in history, Americans should seek unity.

Also, beyond economics and security, isn't every American proud that the country spans sea to sea and beauty of the Appalachians, the Florida beaches, the Grand Canyon and Pacific northwest, to say nothing of Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii, belongs to every American as a birthright?

[vetusfirma]

Every other country in the world wants the US to fall, meaning break up. Additionally, the Blacks, Hispanics, Indians, Chinese, Hawaiians and Russians have a deep seated hate for the US. The liberals have been taught from birth that everything that is wrong with the world is because of the US, so I'd say the chances of the US breaking up are very small.

They will try, but none of them fight well, and we will prevail.

Just my thoughts.

[Hoops_Mckann]

I could possibly see the US fracturing into a few separate nations based on the intense regional self rightousness of peoples political views. It seems like it has been more pronounced as of late.

[Homesteader]

Every other country in the world wants the US to fall, meaning break up. Additionally, the Blacks, Hispanics, Indians, Chinese, Hawaiians and Russians have a deep seated hate for the US. The liberals have been taught from birth that everything that is wrong with the world is because of the US, so I'd say the chances of the US breaking up are very small.
They will try, but none of them fight well, and we will prevail.
Just my thoughts.

White Supremacist, that never plays very well.

[mos6507]

A lot of people have an axe to grind against the US and are attracted to Peak Oil as a form of wish fulfillment for the destruction of the US. Oddly enough, some of these people are americans themselves, and would probably wind up dead in any sort of violent uprising, foreign invasion, mushroom cloud, or any other doomsday scenario they dream up for us.

[Leanan]

If you're really interested in this subject, you might want to read The Untied States of America: Polarization, Fracturing, and Our Future.

Yes, that's "Untied," not "United." He argues that historically, nations are not static. Just viewed through the lens of history...the chance of the US surviving as it is is unlikely.

With peak oil, I think it's even more likely we will break up. Centralized government has an energy cost. The world will get larger, and it will get more and more difficult for Washington to call the shots all over the country. It will simply become more efficient for local government to do things that the feds do now.

Politically speaking, it could be argued that we've never really healed from the Civil War. A lot of the Red vs. Blue state divide is geographically the same as the South vs. the North. As times get tougher, I think a lot of these old schisms will intensify.

[Farknight]

IMHO the US would be prudent to stick it out as a 'Mega Continental State". There are economies of scale in areas as far ranging as national defense to resource bases that favor bigger players. The world ahead will be much less secure than even that of the past century due to resource deprivation. Fracturing our nation would only embolden those that would destroy us to gain what we currently control.

An example in real life would be a gang. Not that I am supporting gangs, mind you, but the analogy popped into my mind. If you live in a rough and tumble section of the projects you know that everyone is out to get you or at least your stuff. It is the law of the jungle at street level as opposed to the same activity played out in pinstripes on Wall Street. Now, if you are in a large, powerful and well respected gang you will be untouchable due to the inevitable terrible payback for any onslaught. However, if the gang fractures and you become a solo actor again, it would be best to move and do so quickly. Suddenly you are easy pickings for the gangs that hold it together and support each other.[i]

[Kingcoal]

It's an interesting subject because the US was formed as a federation of countries (former colonies.) The Constitution is the only thing holding the country together. Right now, the country is tighter and more uniform than it's ever been. The country went through a lot of growing pains, for example, the Civil War, which established the permanence of the Constitution. The Civil War set the president that, like the Mafia, there is no leaving the union once admitted. That wasn't exactly the view before that war.

In light of that, I doubt the USA will break up.

[vetusfirma]

White Supremacist, that never plays very well.[/quote]
hmm..... white supremacist? That thought has never crossed my mind, but it was the first to cross yours...hmmm

In reality I'm a 'E pluribus unum' kind of guy.

The only reason their are problems in the world is because we stopped making states. If we would have continued we would have a one world government, of the right kind, and all would be happy.

[americandream]

The elite love you unswervingly loyal nationalists. You never fail them when the chips are down.

[the48thronin]

The only reason their are problems in the world is because we stopped making states. If we would have continued we would have a one world government, of the right kind, and all would be happy.
Are you sure you have thought this out before you posted that? If you are truly advocating that the Federal USA government should have "made more states" are you then advocating the conquering of all other territories in the world?

Let's sit back a minute and even as proud of the USA as we are give the rest of the nations in the world a little credit for being existent with their own sovereignty can we?

The polarization of the USA has been the chosen force each of the political parties has used to flog their faithful base into voting as apathy sets in with the reality of the lack of any real effective governance and leadership each party has shown in it's time "in charge."

Factorization of our country is possible because each different political group has demonized the opponent and devalued their existence and rights to co exist. The peak oil scenario is only one of the building pressures that the ineffectual leadership has allowed to continue to grow and fester. Without problems to blame the other side for, they would have nothing to base a claim to usurp leadership on.

Adding in some hysterical mega-maniacal complex about world domination on our terms simply shows a lack of desire to ( or understanding to)actually face the internal problems and look for internal solutions.

Invading your neighbors and demanding they live under your standards is never the answer to domestic crisis, and pretending some superiority to all others is not either.

[the48thronin]

One theme that keeps coming up is that the United States will break up in the event of the dislocations that come from peak oil. But, I am not clear why this could ever be a useful thing to consider. Isn't the diversity of the economy one of America's greatest strengths , a function of its large geography?
The mosaic of the United States seems to be perhaps its greatest strength as it faces adversity. Each region has its strengths and its needs. United, it seems by common sense, everybody is better off, more secure. When one aspect of the economy is down, another can be up, and that is a stabilizing factor. So, more than ever before in history, Americans should seek unity.
Also, beyond economics and security, isn't every American proud that the country spans sea to sea and beauty of the Appalachians, the Florida beaches, the Grand Canyon and Pacific northwest, to say nothing of Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii, belongs to every American as a birthright?

Possibly many Americans have begun to think that America the "land of the free home of the brave" has because of poor leadership devolved into a weak copy of the British Empire.

Our self sufficient ancestors have been forgotten for the promise of the "great Society". Our self reliant ancestors have allowed their descendants to become victims of non threatening self esteem protectionist education systems that do not teach the value of struggle and success for fear someone might not succeed as well as some others.

Regional differences ( north and south) pale in comparison to economic differences and demographic differences. The immediate access to information has not unified near as much as it has been used to separate.

Americans might be "proud" of America, but most of them simply do not even have a clear historical base knowledge of what America is, so that politicians can convince them that America is what ever token they hold to the light to effect greater gains in the next elections. There is a reason that "The Federalist Papers" are non existent in secondary school education.

Just a small portion of why America is already fractured and the cracks are already widening can be seen in the differences in values of working blue collar citizens and the elite pictured in the mass media on a nightly basis.

[americandream]

One theme that keeps coming up is that the United States will break up in the event of the dislocations that come from peak oil. But, I am not clear why this could ever be a useful thing to consider. Isn't the diversity of the economy one of America's greatest strengths , a function of its large geography?
The mosaic of the United States seems to be perhaps its greatest strength as it faces adversity. Each region has its strengths and its needs. United, it seems by common sense, everybody is better off, more secure. When one aspect of the economy is down, another can be up, and that is a stabilizing factor. So, more than ever before in history, Americans should seek unity.
Also, beyond economics and security, isn't every American proud that the country spans sea to sea and beauty of the Appalachians, the Florida beaches, the Grand Canyon and Pacific northwest, to say nothing of Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii, belongs to every American as a birthright?

Possibly many Americans have begun to think that America the "land of the free home of the brave" has because of poor leadership devolved into a weak copy of the British Empire.
Our self sufficient ancestors have been forgotten for the promise of the "great Society". Our self reliant ancestors have allowed their descendants to become victims of non threatening self esteem protectionist education systems that do not teach the value of struggle and success for fear someone might not succeed as well as some others.
Regional differences ( north and south) pale in comparison to economic differences and demographic differences. The immediate access to information has not unified near as much as it has been used to separate.
Americans might be "proud" of America, but most of them simply do not even have a clear historical base knowledge of what America is, so that politicians can convince them that America is what ever token they hold to the light to effect greater gains in the next elections. There is a reason that "The Federalist Papers" are non existent in secondary school education.
Just a small portion of why America is already fractured and the cracks are already widening can be seen in the differences in values of working blue collar citizens and the elite pictured in the mass media on a nightly basis.

Sadly though, the American elite turn to the more gullible sections of the working class when their interests are threatened, with fabricated stories of national derring do. In contrast, the huddled masses on the "Mayflower" set forth on that perilous journey to free them selves of this very elitist tyranny, directed against them as it was at the time.

Their sad attempts at creating a new land free of persecution has degenerated into a Hollywood version of British self-interest, the very thing they sought to leave behind.

[emeraldg40]

Im not sure, let me go poll my neighbors, you know, the ones flying the Mexican flag in the front yard and the ones that have the Mexican flag pasted to the rear window in their pick up truck. Of course, I can't forget to ask the white teenage crackheads or the black brothers downtown that live in war daily just praying that the next drive by dosnt kill their child. You speak of Americana in its day of glory. I truly hope to see my amber waves of grain once again. Thanks for the chance to vent.

One theme that keeps coming up is that the United States will break up in the event of the dislocations that come from peak oil. But, I am not clear why this could ever be a useful thing to consider. Isn't the diversity of the economy one of America's greatest strengths , a function of its large geography?
The mosaic of the United States seems to be perhaps its greatest strength as it faces adversity. Each region has its strengths and its needs. United, it seems by common sense, everybody is better off, more secure. When one aspect of the economy is down, another can be up, and that is a stabilizing factor. So, more than ever before in history, Americans should seek unity.
Also, beyond economics and security, isn't every American proud that the country spans sea to sea and beauty of the Appalachians, the Florida beaches, the Grand Canyon and Pacific northwest, to say nothing of Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii, belongs to every American as a birthright?

[Ludi]

Im not sure, let me go poll my neighbors, you know, the ones flying the Mexican flag in the front yard and the ones that have the Mexican flag pasted to the rear window in their pick up truck.

Damn straight. If you're gonna fly a flag over some land, that land ought to be stolen fair and square off a dead Indian!

But seriously, we did steal quite a bit of land from the Mexicans. Maybe they're just getting even.
<<<< lives next door to Mexico

[dunewalker]

If you're really interested in this subject, you might want to read The Untied States of America: Polarization, Fracturing, and Our Future.
Yes, that's "Untied," not "United." He argues that historically, nations are not static. Just viewed through the lens of history...the chance of the US surviving as it is is unlikely.
With peak oil, I think it's even more likely we will break up. Centralized government has an energy cost. The world will get larger, and it will get more and more difficult for Washington to call the shots all over the country. It will simply become more efficient for local government to do things that the feds do now.
Politically speaking, it could be argued that we've never really healed from the Civil War. A lot of the Red vs. Blue state divide is geographically the same as the South vs. the North. As times get tougher, I think a lot of these old schisms will intensify.

I was going to write a post, but leanan said everything I was going to say. She is right, in my estimation. There is a tremendous energy cost of maintaining empire. If it seems impossible to imagine the U.S. disintegrating, just look at the U.S.S.R, the other super power, vanished, "overnight".

[TheDude]

Having a fascination with history and maps I've always been attracted to schemes for reshaping the US, such as the Nine Nations of North America. The states we have are totally arbitrary in shape, and like Leanan says, running things from a distant city has an energy cost; other configurations would be far more efficient in almost every regard.

But since people have romantic attachments to these things they will become quite vehementthat they be left alone, no matter how problematic it will be.

[Kaj]

So are there any serious calls or movements in the US for regional independence?

[wisconsin_cur]

So are there any serious calls or movements in the US for regional independence?

I don't know how serious they are but I do see some movements to increased independence from the federal government and to protect regional resources from other states.
An example of the former would be Arizona's actions toward illegal immigration
and an example of the latter would be the Great Lakes compact
We are starting to see our problems as being local and the federal government as unable/willing to resolve them in an acceptable manner, so we are starting to act on our own.

I guess it is an open question as to whether this is the beginning of a trend or just a blip of some sort.

[vetusfirma]

The only reason their are problems in the world is because we stopped making states. If we would have continued we would have a one world government, of the right kind, and all would be happy.
Are you sure you have thought this out before you posted that? If you are truly advocating that the Federal USA government should have "made more states" are you then advocating the conquering of all other territories in the world?
Let's sit back a minute and even as proud of the USA as we are give the rest of the nations in the world a little credit for being existent with their own sovereignty can we?
The polarization of the USA has been the chosen force each of the political parties has used to flog their faithful base into voting as apathy sets in with the reality of the lack of any real effective governance and leadership each party has shown in it's time "in charge."
Factorization of our country is possible because each different political group has demonized the opponent and devalued their existence and rights to co exist. The peak oil scenario is only one of the building pressures that the ineffectual leadership has allowed to continue to grow and fester. Without problems to blame the other side for, they would have nothing to base a claim to usurp leadership on.
Adding in some hysterical mega-maniacal complex about world domination on our terms simply shows a lack of desire to ( or understanding to)actually face the internal problems and look for internal solutions.
Invading your neighbors and demanding they live under your standards is never the answer to domestic crisis, and pretending some superiority to all others is not either.

You don't know history if you don't understand that war is always the answer to domestic crisis. But that aside, if each of the lands we have conquered had been made territory and after sufficient migration had occurred offered the opportunity to become a state it would surely have changed the world. If Cuba was a state, or the Philippines or Sardinia (where the idea was actually discussed post ww2) or any other place. For all the faults, the US is still the country of choice and the last best hope for so many people who give everything they have to get here. And many here, who have never been outside the country, have not seen abject poverty, and corruption, and do not understand the world can't seem to accept that this is the best country in the world and we few are the luckiest people in the world.

Just my thoughts.