[PeekOil]

Lot of talk in Australian news recently about tapping coal seam gas in Qld and NSW. One report indicated 260 trillion cubic feet potential. Got the feeling that we could use this gas as a primary fuel for quite a long time.

Could this help Australia delay it's peak for a while? Maybe just enough for us to develop new technology?

[cipi604]

Just maybe, 'cause you have a lot of sun there. But even if you have a lot of electricity... it's not that simple as it looks.

[wisconsin_cur]

Lot of talk in Australian news recently about tapping coal seam gas in Qld and NSW. One report indicated 260 trillion cubic feet potential. Got the feeling that we could use this gas as a primary fuel for quite a long time.

Could this help Australia delay it's peak for a while? Maybe just enough for us to develop new technology?

I will have to leave it to someone else to comment upon the possibility itself, but lets take a second to look at the big picture, even if it is all true.

If Australia wants to keep all of that gas (nationalize it) they will be working against the globalization paradigm which, for at least a little longer, holds sway. If Australia refuses to put it on the market, what might her trading partners refuse to sell in retribution? I will not pretend to be an expert on life down under but I would venture a guess that your nation, like mine, imports a lot of things that would be missed if not present. How many jobs would be lost?

If it is put on the market it does you very little good since you must outbid every other potential user. Besides, it wouldn't last that long. The world uses ~150 trillion of natural gas a year... I'm guessing we could run through 260 trillion of coal seem gas pretty quickly, though again I will have to defer to those better educated than myself.



It is a world marketplace and a world problem. Many people are hitching their hopes on natural gas but I can't help but wonder that if doing so we will swamp the ship, so to speak.

[JonathanR]

I think you'll find that the captial economics of coal seam gas production simply don't stack up for domestic consumption rates. These coal seam gas projects are being developed because there is a large LNG market to supply to. Domestic consumption of such gas reserves only occurs because the E&P company can make a profit.

Western Australia's domestic gas is an economic by-product of the Karratha LNG export facility.

Most of Victoria's gas supplies are subisdised by the export or sale of oil and liquids. The same thing probably figures for Santos's Moomba operations.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

They can convert the gas into diesel, that's what all the talk is about. Linc energy are planning a CTL plant that will produce 20,000 barrel a day of diesel fuel, no need to be refined, naturally low in sulfur content, don't know if they can turn it into gasoline but with the high price of diesel, this is great, they are also exporting their technology around the world, China has asked it to build plants for it via co-operation with one of china's companies. Even coal deposits deemed uneconomic to mine can be used as all they do is drill a hole down into one end of the coal seam, pump air down and light the coal and another drill hole allows the gases to escape. It's very cheap as well, estimated at $25-$28 a barrel of diesel to produce. It may solve the problem of peakoil as it can be used anywhere there is coal underground and does not require extensive labour to produce.

Have alook at their roadshow here
http://www.lincenergy.com.au/pdf/asx-69.pdf

If your an environmetalist hoping peakoil will wipe humanity out, I think your out luck, CTL's will solve the energy problem and allow humanity to spread further over the earth.

I think we have many more years left of human population growth, peak oil may not hit now for another few decades, but don't worry doomers, when the big one hits in a afew decades, it will be worth the wait, instead of 6 billion die off, it may be a 20 billion die off.

[alokin]

Here's the WIKI -link:

wki

it seems to be a press release of an operator.

What about the environmental impact?
What about climate impacts?

Link energy provides us sufficient diesel for the future that "with trucks Australia doesn't stop"?

[Dukat_Reloaded]

What about the environmental impact?
What about climate impacts?

So what about it?

They are not a valid part of any calculation for an oil company to be concerned with.





There is no man made global warming or climate change.

[alokin]

Dukat, there are other threads about Global Warming. I think the discussion should be done there. I have seen other graphs of the global average temperature and your graph doesn't show the source.

I reply only briefly: CO2 concentration has doubled since the industrial revolution. CO2 is known to be a trigger in huge climate changes in the past - though they were not man made. So you think we can alter the earth atmosphere without having any effect? Mankind has yet changed the climate in various regions of the world.

[PeekOil]

Right now, Australia needs to prove the viability of extracting this gas in a commercial environment. The foreign investment should achieve this.

Once proven, it can be done by local companies. It may not be economic at the moment but that can change due to a couple of reasons.

1. Increasing price - not just globally but locally.
2. Increasing demand - particuarly locally.

Non Australians may not be familiar with what we have here in Australia. In America you have Gas (gasoline) but here we call it petrol - same stuff basically. We also have LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) and this is a true gas (butane/propane). Cars can be converted to run on LNG for around $2000 to $4000. The government here pays the first $2000 so in some cases, it is free to the car owner.

LNG gets about 2/3 the milage of Petrol/Gasoline. Currently it costs around $0.65 per litre compared to $1.65 per liter for petrol and $1.80 per litre for diesel. I had my wifes car converted and paid $500 for the conversion after the governments contribution. The car has a taggle switch on the dash. Flick it one way and you are driving on petrol, flick it the other way and you are on LNG. Can switch while driving and hardly notice the difference. 70L tank gets us as far as the petrol tank and is a lot cheaper to fill.

In a peak oil scenario, we could keep on driving thanks to this alternative. No doubt, everyone else would want to make the switch at the same time. When the government started offering it's rebate, a huge industry sprung up as thousands converted. The demand for LNG would shoot up and this would allow for the economics of getting the stuff out of the ground in the first place.

If LNG is the only game in town and still cheaper that the limited petrol, then people will fork out for the stuff. Athough we use some gas for transport, we are still mainly using it to heat our homes and cook our food. With new demand in the transport arena, we can expect that the stuff will be prized.

Australias method of extraction of coal seam gas is apparently different to the method used in the US. This is due to the different depth of the coal as I understand it. There was mention of using water to get the gas out.

If peak oil hits soon, Australia may be well positioned to get through the worst part and have enough time to make the necessary adjustments that will no doubt be necessary. We may even be able to setup some new technologies so that we can emerge with a new form of energy to take the world forward a bit longer.

[alokin]

once more: what about the environmental impacts of coal seam gas?

[Judgie]

Right now, Australia needs to prove the viability of extracting this gas in a commercial environment. The foreign investment should achieve this.

Once proven, it can be done by local companies. It may not be economic at the moment but that can change due to a couple of reasons.

1. Increasing price - not just globally but locally.
2. Increasing demand - particuarly locally.

Non Australians may not be familiar with what we have here in Australia. In America you have Gas (gasoline) but here we call it petrol - same stuff basically. We also have LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) and this is a true gas (butane/propane). Cars can be converted to run on LNG for around $2000 to $4000. The government here pays the first $2000 so in some cases, it is free to the car owner.

LNG gets about 2/3 the milage of Petrol/Gasoline. Currently it costs around $0.65 per litre compared to $1.65 per liter for petrol and $1.80 per litre for diesel. I had my wifes car converted and paid $500 for the conversion after the governments contribution. The car has a taggle switch on the dash. Flick it one way and you are driving on petrol, flick it the other way and you are on LNG. Can switch while driving and hardly notice the difference. 70L tank gets us as far as the petrol tank and is a lot cheaper to fill.

In a peak oil scenario, we could keep on driving thanks to this alternative. No doubt, everyone else would want to make the switch at the same time. When the government started offering it's rebate, a huge industry sprung up as thousands converted. The demand for LNG would shoot up and this would allow for the economics of getting the stuff out of the ground in the first place.

If LNG is the only game in town and still cheaper that the limited petrol, then people will fork out for the stuff. Athough we use some gas for transport, we are still mainly using it to heat our homes and cook our food. With new demand in the transport arena, we can expect that the stuff will be prized.

Australias method of extraction of coal seam gas is apparently different to the method used in the US. This is due to the different depth of the coal as I understand it. There was mention of using water to get the gas out.

If peak oil hits soon, Australia may be well positioned to get through the worst part and have enough time to make the necessary adjustments that will no doubt be necessary. We may even be able to setup some new technologies so that we can emerge with a new form of energy to take the world forward a bit longer.

If we combine the probable output of all these projects (within Australia), what percentage of our total daily consumption of oil and it's derivatives will that equate too?

[PeekOil]

once more: what about the environmental impacts of coal seam gas?

If the SHTF then really, primary concerns take precedence. Sure climate change may destroy us but what does that matter if we are going to die anyway.

As it happens, I think coal seam gas extraction will be relativly "clean" but in the long run, Australian governments are going to be thinking more about facing 21 + million voters demanding to drive their cars and have affordable food. It may not be a fuel of choice from the environmental perspective but it may just be the needed bridge to a better solution.

Incidently, on 60 minutes last night, the were talking about the 30 Gbarrels of shale oil Aus has. I think that that would be a much nastier solution.

[PeekOil]

If we combine the probable output of all these projects (within Australia), what percentage of our total daily consumption of oil and it's derivatives will that equate too?

Judgie,

I read an article somewhere (sorry I can't find the link but will post it if I come across it) that indicated that we would need around 5 trillion cubic feet of gas to run basically everything. At worst, we would have around 35 years worth of gas ate full tilt. Using a combination (eg. coal for electricity together with wind and solar - a bit of ethanol, a bit of oil from coal, a bit of shale oil etc) of sources we should be able to push that out by wuite a bit more.

We are ina good position because we have a relitavly small population to our land and sea area so when we have a good find, it goes a long way and we have a lot of area to get lucky in.

[alokin]

What about the Energy Invested Energy return ratio of coal seam gas?

We can save a lot of petrol in Australia: the car fleet is highly unreasonable, the train system laughable, and Australians might remember that they have a pair of legs.
Same with the electricity consumption: I learned in a lecture that the average QLD house uses about 32 kWh a day - how do they manage to use that much??

The real problem is not recognized by the average person or why else Rudd is under pressure doing something about petrol prices?

[PeekOil]

Alokin,

Sorry, I don't have an answer for the EROEI but I suspect being a gas, it will be easier to extract than something like thick gooey oil.

Anyone else her have an answer to this?

Also note that if a static fuel (eg solar or nuclear) can be used to extract a poor EROEI mobile fuel, it may well be worth while still.

[Judgie]

Alokin,

Sorry, I don't have an answer for the EROEI but I suspect being a gas, it will be easier to extract than something like thick gooey oil.

Anyone else her have an answer to this?

Also note that if a static fuel (eg solar or nuclear) can be used to extract a poor EROEI mobile fuel, it may well be worth while still.

I am aware that the Cooper basin is in decline, however i'm not certain of the status of other Australian fields. I'm not sure of the status of the others at the very moment. I'll be away the next two days, will update this post when I come back.

Cheers.

[Zeeea]

Rather than tapping into the earths natural gas supply so readily without learning first the resultant repurcussions, maybe first considering the untapped gasses that our rubbish landfills emit would be initially the best step forward ...its already being done with great success by the few who have already taken advantage of recycling man-made waste gasses.

...why is it always the first thought to drain natural resources when we need something? Look at what we have already unintentionally created first and do what we can to change it ...

[biggav]

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about CSG (and some other things) floating around in this thread.

I took a long look at this subject last month for those interested in what is happening (mostly in Australia, but also elsewhere) :

http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2008/10/ ... rs-of.html

There is already a lot of CSG being produced in Oz - mostly being used for power generation. LNG plants are just a way of forcing the local market price up to international levels.

If we build all planned LNG plants (both naturla gas ones and CSG ones), use gas for all domestic power consumption and use CNG for all transport, Australian gas supplies would still last over 70 years.

The world as a whole can't do this, but Oz certainly can (its not my personal preference however) and the export land phenomenon wouldn't kick in for decades...