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USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

which sources are most promising?

Poll ended at Sun 21 Sep 2008, 12:58:08

Oil Shale
0
No votes
Coal
4
13%
Nuclear
7
23%
Hydro-Electric (Inclued wind here)
4
13%
Wave & Tidal
0
No votes
Geo-thermal
5
16%
Natural Gas
0
No votes
Oil
0
No votes
Bitumen & Heavy Oil
1
3%
Bio Fuels
1
3%
None -- we are all going to die!!
9
29%
 
Total votes : 31

USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby elear2787 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 12:47:40

I know I'm going to be beat to death for this... but be gentle :cry:

1.) Oil Shale -- yes this is expensive to extract and we need to work on bi-product use... there are many useful byproducts here that help defray costs!! Like: Uranium, vanadium, zinc, alumina, phosphate, sodium carbonate minerals, ammonium sulphate, and sulfur add potential value to some deposits. Also by-products from oil shale include specialty carbon fibers, adsorbent carbons, carbon black, bricks, construction and decorative building blocks, soil additives, fertilizers, rock wool insulating materials, and glass. (Wold Energy Council). We have an estimated reserve of over 1.5 trillion barrels of oil shale of a global 2.8 trillion barrels. This is... according to my math about a 200 year supply of oil for us... that assumes continued efficiency allowing for current consumption patterns to make up for increased needs including population growth which may be a stretch but its the only practicable estimate for our purposes here.

~ So to be conservative proper development of oil shale could prolong our peak by... at current use it replaces oil for 200 years so to be conservative lets say we get 75-100 years out of it if properly developed.

2.) Coal -- Yes its dirty but we have it and someone is going to use it. Thats just the cold hard truth. Those who have read me before know that I'm a fan of clean coal filtered through algal diesel production to sequester the CO2 and use it again for liquid fuel... thus building our abilities to use algae to sequester more CO2 and be a fuels source independently when the coal is gone.. at least thats my hope.

Global coal reserves in 2005 where estimated at 850 billion tonnes. which is enough for 150 years of current consumption...this won't happen because of China and India's current consumption growth rate... but domestically we have enough to last until we find a power solution IMO. I don't suggest coal gasification however because I believe that threatens future electric production and is much harder to make green... power plants with proper infrastructure can be very environmentally friendly and I think we need to work on implementing the technology we have in that respect!

3.) Nuclear -- sure its scary but hey its relatively clean and relatively environmentally friendly. Replacing coal electricity needs with nuclear is the right move into the future IMO.

"Suffice it to say here that uranium resources are plentiful and pose no constraint on future nuclear power development." World Energy Council. Need I say more? The fuel is there... We aren't running out in our life time.

4.) Hydro-Electric -- this is still not entirely tapped or used to capacity. With issues of global warming on everyones mind this would be a great place to look. Water management is one of the biggest issues with global warming and if done properly we can kill two birds with one stone. By managing fresh water reserves to prevent or minimize impact of floods and droughts we can simultaneously produce hydro-electric energy... this is something that needs more in depth planning and study than it currently receives world wide! This is another potential algae infrastructure issue... perhaps integrate a macro algae harvest with this IDK just a thought haven't studied that aspect.

5.) Wave & Tidal -- these are not currently practical economically since estimates put commercial production around 44 cents per KWH which is I guess 4 times the national average. This is from my other reading about 2 times the cost of solar energy. However, as conventional energy is depleted this is a definite saver. This is probably more of a long term thought that short term solution since we would need to greatly increase efficiency or else wait until energy is more costly... but at some point this technology will probably come into play.

6.) Geo-Thermal. -- this is the coolest IMO -- The US is currently the largest producer of GEO-Thermal energy. It is done commercially and there is potential to greatly increase domestic out put if we are willing to invest in it.
MIT Panel
With a reasonable investment in R&D, EGS could provide
100 GWe or more of cost-competitive generating capacity in the next 50 years...

we have estimated the total EGS
resource base to be more than 13 million exajoules (EJ). Using reasonable assumptions regarding how
heat would be mined from stimulated EGS reservoirs, we also estimated the extractable portion to
exceed 200,000 EJ or about 2,000 times the annual consumption of primary energy in the United
States in 2005.

This is about a 375 page document but the executive summary would be a really good read! This is a real possibility when it comes to replacement of fossil fuels in the US!! I have high hopes.

7.) Natural Gas -- this is relatively unexplored globally and its anticipated that there are many large reserves to be found. Conservative estimates put future reserves at 130 times 2005 global consumption although about 70% current proven reserves are found in the middle east or Russia the pacific basin is expected to come into the picture as a major player in proven reserves in the near future.

8.) OIL -- To date we have consumed between 37% and 47% of the EUR. We have consumed 47% of proven reserves but its anticipated that large discoveries in the future bring the number down to 37% of total. We still have a lot left but with increasing demand now is the time to move off of oil and into something else. I still say that we need to be careful to use our reserves domestically before technology makes it less valuable.. I think now is the time to develop it and use the resources to build future energy infrastructure!

9.) Bitumen and Heavy Oil -- I'm not really that impressed... Canada has a lot of the stuff and development of technology there would be good for North America as a whole since there is over 1 trillion barrels of the stuff estimated on this continent. Again probably a good cushion if other technologies don't come along fast enough this would give us a few more decades to figure it out.

10.) Bio-Fuels -- These are controversial. We simply don't have the arable land at present production to make this viable with current feed crops. Ethanol is not the savior the process is too energy needy in the first place. Bio-diesel is the way to go but I think drawing from feed crops exclusively is a mistake. I think for this to be viable it has to take advantage of the land that is not farmed for feed crops. Algae would be one option but there are also some other technologies in the works that might be viable. Personally I'm a big fan of algal diesel. Algae requires no soil and thus can use un-used land to produce energy. I like the closed loops systems but would also like to see some studies on more natural harvesting methods... like production and processing at sea... I don't know that these would be feasible but I would like to find some reading on on this if anyone knows of any. I have read a lot about the technology surrounding the algal diesel industry and I think it is doable!! I think that with proper R&D and infrastructure investment algae could replace our liquid fuels in the distant future. I think we have plenty of fossil fuels to keep us going until we are able to perfect the algae thing but the faster the better.. this is a closed loop idea basically a bio-solar system... the algae chemically stores solar energy just like oil... but this acts sequester and reuse the same CO2 meaning that long run emissions from this would be zero... it recycles the carbon from the atmosphere... its genius really. Its a natural solar cell. But it does need a little more work to be really economically feasible... but I think that from my reading it is certainly doable.

Ok lets discuss 1-10... and lets talk about our estimates on the peak of civilization. I think I more or less show here that we are not going to see any energy peak in our life time or our children's lifetimes but lets talk about it. Which fuel is the most promising and what fuels have I missed? Am I missing some major discover that precludes development of any of these... and I don't mean technology that is not totally developed... if the R&D had been done and technology was there then it would be in use already... so thats not a valid argument.. unless you can preclude the future development of the source it is a valid future source in my opinion.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby HEADER_RACK » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 13:04:17

FIGHT ON BROTHER!!! KEEP LIVING THE DREAM!!!

[smilie=eusa_think.gif] I need more ammo.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby KingM » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 13:16:03

We have to go nuclear if we're going to hope to prolong civilization. Geo, wind, and hydro will be important, but nukes have got to do the heavy lifting.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby syrac818 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 14:12:59

Nice post elear2787.

As the price of oil keeps rising or at least maintains in this range, I expect coal-to-liquid to seriously ramp up. Dirty as hell? Yes. But it's also available and has been produced on a mass scale before. Sasol, Headwaters, Syntroleoum and Rentech are already positioning themselves to become large players in the jet fuel market, in addition to working with the military. From there, it's not that much of a stretch for them to reach the American consumer. They may attempt to "green wash" it in order to at least make the American public feel better about it.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby kpeavey » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 14:57:57

Let's say all these alternative sources do the job of replacing petroleum based energy as petroleum goes into decline.

How do you propose to replace the loss of feedstocks derived from petroleum? Such things as fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, plastics, solvents, synthetic fabrics, pharmaceutical, synthetic rubber...an endless list of products are produced using petroleum for its chemicals. Peak Oil is not just about the energy.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby cipi604 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 15:01:58

It's pretty obvious that there is no way out of this...
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby elear2787 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 16:01:58

How do you propose to replace the loss of feedstocks derived from petroleum? Such things as fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, plastics, solvents, synthetic fabrics, pharmaceutical, synthetic rubber...an endless list of products are produced using petroleum for its chemicals. Peak Oil is not just about the energy.


Well thats is exactly the same situation. What we have is a need. Need is the mother of invention. Go check out your cooler, you fridge or your car... things that use to be cork are now petro based... same with rubbers... now go check your packing peanuts... odds are those are starch now... Point being we use whatever does the job best... if we run out of the best then we start looking for a new way... generally we find a better way but until its broke we don't fix it.

If I break a bone and patch it up correctly or put a plate or rod in there most of the time I come out with a stronger bone... so would you expect me to break my bones so that I can make them stronger? would you expect me to go ahead and put in rods and plates if my bones aren't broken? Of course not thats crazy but its the same scenario here.

We are at 37% consumed.. that means we have another 2 times what we have used to date... many of these goods will need to be recycled!! Many others will be replaced with new technology. Oil shale, heavy oils, bitumen, and other sources exist for these other products as well even if they aren't the "Best" energy solution. Mostly I expect that when we don't need to find a use for all the petro bi-products other materials will be found or implemented that are just as effective... maybe more expensive or maybe less effective but we'll get the job done! Oil replaced cork, rubber, and whale oil which replaced wood, leather, metal and other inferior items that where used prior to them... I suspect something will replace oil. Plastics can be made from most any proteans... and the bi-products of bio-fuels and other alternatives have yet to be explored... but the key is there will be plenty of this stuff if we recycle... I mean imagine 3xs the present amount of plastic... we need to recycle the stuff!! Pharmaceuticals change all the time but I don't think they use a large enough quantity that they are really going to have a problem paying a higher price to get there petro products from oil shale or some costly method of production. Everything that is in oil... can be synthetically produced.. it might cost a little more but that just means we need to get more efficient!! We can do it... we have done it before.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby elear2787 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 16:03:30

BTW WOW 5 "we are going to dies" little bias towards fatalism around here maybe?? :? :cry: :twisted:
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby Dezakin » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 16:45:42

kpeavey wrote:Let's say all these alternative sources do the job of replacing petroleum based energy as petroleum goes into decline.

How do you propose to replace the loss of feedstocks derived from petroleum? Such things as fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, plastics, solvents, synthetic fabrics, pharmaceutical, synthetic rubber...an endless list of products are produced using petroleum for its chemicals. Peak Oil is not just about the energy.


All that stuff can be synthesized from H and CO over various catalysts.

You can make that from coal or nuclear power.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby Electric_Economy_2025 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 16:51:44

Why not all of them as a group to help or make a slow landing if thats what you thing is going to happen :)
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby kpeavey » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 17:00:37

Dezakin
There is simply no debating a point when both sides are foresquare in their beliefs. It is an exercise in futility, offers no gain other than the pride of having put someone in their place occasionally, and quite frankly, I have no interest in the horsehockey that comes out of your keyboard.

In my time here I have never set anyone on Ignore. Your senseless drivel, offensive tactics, rudeness, blatant IGNORANCE, self-righteous arrogance and petty nature have led me to broaden my ways.

Using the ignore button, I enter a new future. I wish you well yours.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
_____

twenty centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, and what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
-George Yeats
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby Dezakin » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 17:13:49

kpeavey wrote:Dezakin
There is simply no debating a point when both sides are foresquare in their beliefs. It is an exercise in futility, offers no gain other than the pride of having put someone in their place occasionally, and quite frankly, I have no interest in the horsehockey that comes out of your keyboard.

In my time here I have never set anyone on Ignore. Your senseless drivel, offensive tactics, rudeness, blatant IGNORANCE, self-righteous arrogance and petty nature have led me to broaden my ways.

Using the ignore button, I enter a new future. I wish you well yours.

Wonder what made him so mad.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby dsula » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 17:15:38

Dezakin wrote:
kpeavey wrote:Dezakin
There is simply no debating a point when both sides are foresquare in their beliefs. It is an exercise in futility, offers no gain other than the pride of having put someone in their place occasionally, and quite frankly, I have no interest in the horsehockey that comes out of your keyboard.

In my time here I have never set anyone on Ignore. Your senseless drivel, offensive tactics, rudeness, blatant IGNORANCE, self-righteous arrogance and petty nature have led me to broaden my ways.

Using the ignore button, I enter a new future. I wish you well yours.

Wonder what made him so mad.

Me too.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 17:16:38

Solar is missing on the list.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby elear2787 » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 17:16:55

Wow dezakin... I thought he was talking about me for a minute there... I'm usually labeled as all of the above ... who would have thought that you could provoke that over 2 lines... which I thought where quite factual... I'm pretty sure we can synthesis all that stuff with any power source... I still love you dezakin :roll:

I want to preemptively apologize for anything offensive I say.. I like to argue and debate and don't mean to offend nor do I think people are really stupid... If I did I probably wouldn't waste my time discussing with you.. I write here to learn more than anything... I like the banter it makes me firm up my positions and occasionally change them... so if I offend you tell me and I will apologize.. I mean no hard feelings to anyone! I'm just not tactful as I should be.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby Dezakin » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 17:43:06

mos6507 wrote:Solar is missing on the list.

Good point, but so is fusion.

I think both will play an important part of our energy mix in a couple of centuries. Maybe solar sooner. I wouldn't want to bet our survival on it though.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 21:13:46

I think geo-thermal has a lot of merit, as far as heating/cooling goes.

I also think we need to quit thinking three cars to every household is something desirable and even necessary.
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby dunewalker » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 21:32:05

"USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak"

The only question I have is why would you or anyone want to prolong the peak? If you know it is inevitable, what is to be gained by postponing it? What have we gained by postponing the energy crisis from the 1970s to the present? Name one thing that is better about the world.
"Wilderness is another civilization apart from our own." - H.D. Thoreau
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby DomusAlbion » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 21:39:55

Our own oil plus coal should allow the US to keep limping along for awhile. But we need to start developing nuclear again and we need to start NOW!

I believe there is only one nuke plant planned at the moment. There should be 100s in the planning stages now. If we have to let's bring over French firms to design and build them for us.

O Lord, what am I saying? The French? :shock:
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Re: USA Possibilities to Prolong Peak

Unread postby Revi » Fri 13 Jun 2008, 22:10:04

mos6507 wrote:Solar is missing on the list.


Yeah, what about solar? If everyone in the country had a solar hot water heater there would be a huge savings in fuel.

If there were PV systems the load on the electric grid would be reduced as well.

We have a bunch of solar stuff on our house. It has prolonged our ability to pay for hot water and electricity.

It could work as a strategy, and it's decentralized.
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