[energyfight]

It just seams to me that Europe is not in such a bad shape, please correct me if I am wrong.

1) For decades (Western parts) they kept high taxes on energy, this forced urban planning to be designed in a sustainable method where villages and cities allowed people to be productive and prosperous with out a car, and more important consume less energy per person when you factor in housing, heating/cooling, food, transport and so forth.

2) Now that decades of good planning have created this BASE, simply ease off a little on energy taxes. The governments receivables may drop a little, but the inertia with it past urban planning will continue.

3) If they lowered energy taxes, this would add more liquidity to the EU market. In doing so, this would fuel the economy and avoid a recession, and then the ECB has every right to increase interest rates, just a tad.

4) If interest rates go up, then the Euro is strong at which it would be easy to purchase energy.

Sure, a stronger Euro would allow jobs to leave to 3rd world nations like the US (I say this reluctantly), but productivity, if measured by energy units would be higher in the EU than places like the US because of the decades of high energy taxes.

Conclusion: It just seams to me that they could drop energy taxes maybe 20% and there would be a decades of stability in the EU. Despite the PO is real, I do not believe the EU would disintegrate like the US is facing. The US has an entire economy, infrastructure, and mind set that not only demands cheap energy, expects cheap energy, but can't survive with out cheap energy.

I live in the US but have clients in the EU and get paid in Euro. And over the last couple of years I'm seeing more and more demand for my services. Unfortunately, it looks to me like the US will eventually be Europe's India.
My trips to Europe were very impressive, right down to the subways in Paris where the train actually have rubber wheels which make the ride very smooth.

From Europe, across Russia to Asia, this maybe a great place to live as the die off accelerates. When I say great, I mean, just to survive.

[canis_lupus]

This is a pretty interesting thought, actually. If played correctly politically, it could be dynamite.

"We're going to drop your energy taxes because we can -- we started preparing for this decades ago. This tax break is only temporary, to help people get back on the right track. Energy costs are not going down, so we're going to help you, the taxpayer, reorient your lives to higher gas prices. Get used to public transportation." Signed, your government.

Hm.

What do you do for a living?

[Cashmere]

Europe is screwed worse than most of the 1st world, other than, I'd say, Japan and NZ.

Europe - - - massively depleted resources, overpopulated, a fractional "Union" that is just busting at the seams to explode, a history of non-stop war, very little oil producing capacity, and no unified military to properly fight for oil.

In sum, screwed.

Don't be fooled by all the hype about "sustainable" and "mass transit".

All of that won't mean shit when 30 million Germans don't have food.

[SILENTTODD]

Compared to the United States, which still produces about 1/3rd of the oil it uses, Europe will do fine.

As I write in Orange County California, the price of gas is approximately $4.30 - $4.50 a gallon.

If gas were to rise to $6 a gallon by November, it will be catastrophe in this country.

[Ainan]

I agree with energyfight, Europe will probably do well for quite some time. In the long run I don't think anywhere in the world will do that well, however in the short term at least Europe looks a lot more promising than America.

Which poses a thought. Large scale protests around Europe over the mass immigration of Americans fleeing poverty coming to Europe.

"Those yanks took our jobs!"

[energyfight]

Cashmere,

In the same post you claim Europe is overpopulated, yet you state Japan is doing great? I would say Japan has more people per sq meter than the EU. And France is a model of nuclear energy, while Spain have an incredible energy policy that is seeing solar being deployed faster than any nation... And Germany, even if scrambling for wind tech, when you factor investments in public transport or renewable such as wind, I would say the EU is going to be stable...

And anyway, it took over $9 gal gas for the truckers in Spain to revolt... Just imagine $9 gal gas in America... ammo and guns would be friggen hot after that... Alexey Miller of Gazprom said $250 / brl of oil is about 12 months away... But I believe Japan and the US will be hosed sooner than the EU when that happens.

And your comment about needing an Army to secure oil?! How's Bush doing? Taking from others will not work... and if your society is advanced enough, innovative, and efficient, then you will not need an army to get oil... But if you have oil, well then, you will need an army.

Your brute force method will never work, not when England tried to hold on to America, or when France invaded Russia, or when Hitler skipped across Ukraine or Russia... and as intelligent people see today, Bush is in Iraq busy decimating the dollar and blowing eventualy 2 trillion $ that could have transformed America into an energy efficiant country...

Pansies like Hitler and Bush chase other nations for oil.

[Cashmere]

Energyfight - reading comprehension son, develop it.

I said Europe was 3rd on my list as worst 1st world place to be, behind Japan and NZ.

I think Japan is worst and NZ is 2nd worst. Then Europe, then the U.S..

I think you've confused me for a prideful patriot.

Like I said, energyfight, stop talking about windmills and nuclear and ask yourself what you're going to do when there are 60,000,000 hungry Germans.

That's your real problem.

Europe has enjoyed a nice 63 rest from war.

It's clear that the rest is about to end.

What, you don' think the Serbs are itching to retake Kosovo?

Do the Greeks suddenly like the Turks?

And the Germans.

Have they really progressed past their 1000 year history of aggression?

Come on. It's easy to see coming.


At least in the U.S. Oregonians won't be shooting at Washingtonians because of some 1,200 year old gripe.

[energyfight]

Cashmere,

You seam a little obsessed with Germany... I don't know about my typing that you criticize, but above you wrote 30 million Germans, now you write 60 million... so which is it? 30 or 60?

Last time I checked, Germany's economy was holding well, certainly if you compare to the US economy.

And my entire point was that no matter how bad this energy crises gets, at least Europe can back down on energy taxes, it's the US that has no wiggle room.
Whether it is interest rates, taxes or currency strength, the Euro zone has lots of room to do what is best.
On the other hand, the US has hit every wall and has no more room.

Anyway, my original post was to fish for opinions as to who's economy, the US or the EU will last the longest on this hospice bed?

[Fredrik]

Like I said, energyfight, stop talking about windmills and nuclear and ask yourself what you're going to do when there are 60,000,000 hungry Germans.

Provided that Europe gets just enough NG from Russia to produce fertilizers (a small fraction of current use), I don't believe in a famine of such extent in continental Europe. There will be lots of problems, anger, and refugees from the south, though.

As for the Germans' inherent aggression, I don't they'd even be politically or militarily capable of invading Belgium as they are now (probably the most pacifist and least nationalist country in Europe, some East German skinhead retards nonwithstanding).