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MPG illusion

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MPG illusion

Unread postby coyote » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 01:07:54

Experts find key to saving fuel: say gallons per mile

I found this a very interesting study on gains in fuel efficiency. Basically, it says that modest-seeming efficiency gains in lower-mpg vehicles actually adds up to a lot more fuel gallons saved than does apparently dramatic efficiency gains in higher-mpg vehicles. In other words, the diminishing returns law here applies. This is made clear by thinking in terms of gallons per mile instead of miles per gallon.

For instance, for a driver traveling 10,000 miles in a year: switching from a 10-mpg vehicle to a 20-mpg vehicle will save you 500 gallons over the course of that year (going from 1,000 gallons used to 500 gallons used); but switching from a 25-mpg vehicle to a 50-mpg vehicle (say, switching to a hybrid) will, though seeming to be a larger jump, by comparison save only 200 gallons over that year (going from 400 gallons used to 200 gallons used). So even though in the latter case you're making a 25-mpg jump, the increased gain is illusory.

Say they release a superhybrid next year that gets 100 mpg. Switching from the 50-mpg hybrid all the way up to the 100-mpg superhybrid will only gain you an extra 100 gallons over the year. Meanwhile, the poor ignorant schmuck who switched from a Hummer to a Jeep Cherokee conserved five times the amount of gas you did. Exactly the opposite from what your intuition might tell you.

Obviously, best case would be switching from the Cherokee to the superhybrid. (Hummer drivers are hereby ignored.) But, as a whole society, that's just not going to happen. Too damn expensive.

So: if we really intend to do something about our fuel efficiency, as a society, we should forget about the superhybrids and focus on fixing the bottom end. The gains will be enormous by comparison.

Also, for individuals: if you're trading in that Cherokee, don't bother with the expensive hybrid. Save yourself some money -- unless you're a geek freak like me. :o
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 02:04:34

You can play all these efficiency games. I'm doing my fair share right now, but it's all just a stalling tactic. It will all reach a point of diminishing returns if gas continues to go up indefinitely. There is only so much you can do with an internal combustion engine. If you still want to drive fair number of miles, the only way out of this hell is a plugin hybrid or EV.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby cube » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 02:05:35

coyote wrote:...
For instance, for a driver traveling 10,000 miles in a year: switching from a 10-mpg vehicle to a 20-mpg vehicle will save you 500 gallons over the course of that year (going from 1,000 gallons used to 500 gallons used); but switching from a 25-mpg vehicle to a 50-mpg vehicle (say, switching to a hybrid) will, though seeming to be a larger jump, by comparison save only 200 gallons over that year (going from 400 gallons used to 200 gallons used). So even though in the latter case you're making a 25-mpg jump, the increased gain is illusory.
...
The point of diminishing returns? :wink:
//
imagine this scenario
10,000 miles / yr
50mpg -> 200 gallon / yr
100mpg -> 100 gallon / yr
save 100 gallons
If gas = $10 then save only $1,000 / yr

Imagine the difficulty in making a car get 100mpg and your only reward is $1,000.
IMHO --> not worth it. This is why I think 50mpg will be the "brick wall" more or less.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Oil_be_alroit » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 03:57:07

Throughout continental Europe "litres per 100km" is used to express economy, although here in Holland it's "km/l" - same way round as mpg.

Personally I've never got used to l/100km, I find the numbers pretty meaningless. The economy display in my car is in l/100km and it's normally around 9.5 but if I go on a long drive I can get it down to 8.5. Hmmm, interesting, but what's that in mpg?

The other problem is perception; if you trade in your Hummer for an SUV you're saving significantly more fuel than the person who trades in his Grand Am for a Prius.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby TheDude » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 04:04:21

Interesting.

Buy a motorcycle or street legal scooter. Puts you in a whole other ballpark. The barrier to higher efficiency gains is the dubious notion of personal transportation having to include windows/trunk space/AC.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby MrBill » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 04:14:35

I have no problem at all with 6 litres per 100 km, but when I post on peak oil I always have to convert that into miles per gallon, so that the widest audience possible understands the terminology. 39.43 mpg. About what an average new sedan with a 1.6 litre, 4-cylinder, manual transmission gets here in Europe without giving up comfort or performance.

coyote wrote:
I found this a very interesting study on gains in fuel efficiency. Basically, it says that modest-seeming efficiency gains in lower-mpg vehicles actually adds up to a lot more fuel gallons saved than does apparently dramatic efficiency gains in higher-mpg vehicles. In other words, the diminishing returns law here applies. This is made clear by thinking in terms of gallons per mile instead of miles per gallon.


Sure. What matters is the efficiency gains for the 90% of the fleet that gets poor mileage. The efficiency gains of the top 10% are diluted by losses elsewhere. So when industry tries to water down average CAFE standards it makes a huge negative impact overall. Especially when we know 40 mpg is easy to achieve, and not some far off distant prospect as the auto manufacturers in the US would have us believe.

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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Oil_be_alroit » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 04:41:57

TheDude wrote:Buy a motorcycle or street legal scooter. Puts you in a whole other ballpark. The barrier to higher efficiency gains is the dubious notion of personal transportation having to include windows/trunk space/AC.


Point taken, but it takes a lot to get people out of their cars (myself included), for instance currently we're paying nearly $10/gal here but it's not changing driving behaviour much.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Javaman » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 06:44:11

TheDude wrote:Interesting.

Buy a motorcycle or street legal scooter. Puts you in a whole other ballpark. The barrier to higher efficiency gains is the dubious notion of personal transportation having to include windows/trunk space/AC.


Four people carpooling in a 30-mpg car are getting the "equivalent" of 120 mpg, which is better than many scooters, and certainly faster, safer and more comfortable.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Heineken » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 07:32:02

People with better-mileage vehicles will tend to drive more miles.

Either they will use much of the "saved" gasoline, or someone else will.

Jevon's paradox.

I have a guzzling F-150 4 x 4 but I drive it only 4500 miles per year. My "mileage" is fabulous.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Revi » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 07:32:10

If you get the biggest bang for your buck by switching out the gas hog, then that explains the sudden unpopularity of the SUV. You can trade one of those beasts in and get a small car for it. You are instantly saving a lot of money in tires and gas.

At 20 mpg the average person driving 12,000 miles buys 600 gallons of gas per year.

At 40 mpg that goes down to 300 gallons.

Saving 300 gallons of gas per year saves the average person $1200.

In 5 years you've paid the cost of a used high mileage car.

I traded my large pickup for one that gets 29mpg. Everyone in my conference room told me I was crazy. I figure I took a $2000 beating on the trade, but I made it up since the cost of gas went up, so switching from an average of 16 mpg to over 25 mpg paid the difference, and then some.

I did lose respect in the conference room, however. They are beginning to see things my way now, though.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby MrBill » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 08:10:40

Heineken wrote:People with better-mileage vehicles will tend to drive more miles.

Either they will use much of the "saved" gasoline, or someone else will.

Jevon's paradox.

I have a guzzling F-150 4 x 4 but I drive it only 4500 miles per year. My "mileage" is fabulous.


I do not doubt the 'theoretical' underpinnings of Jevon's Paradox, which is ironically just supply and demand analysis for non-economists, engineers in particular, but to be honest I think the theory has quite a few holes in it as commonly interpreted (or misinterpreted).

I do not drive more just because gas is more or less expensive. I have a limited budget. Gasoline is an expense. Therefore, I minimize my expense, no matter what the cost. You do it by driving only 4500 miles per year. Someone else might reduce that expense by downsizing to a smaller, more efficient car. Unless you're talking about driving for recreation or entertainment value then miles traveled does not really enter in the picture.

As a cost of production energy costs or transport costs in particular are a cost of doing business. They need to be optimized, not minimalized, in order to achieve maximum financial profitability. But optimalization is still a limitation to demand. Businesses do not drive farther than they have to just because energy is cheap.

Whether you are an individual or a business transport fuel is a cost. If you consume it you either have less discretionary spending for other purposes or lower profits to distribute to shareholders or re-invest. Either way it makes sense to reduce non-core energy consumption. High energy prices just encourage that behavior.

What we are really talking about is non-core demand. Recreational driving, driving a larger vehicle for reasons of status or safety, living farther from work in order to buy a better home, etc. They are a trade-off between the cost of transport fuel and 'utility'. Utility is simply convenience and/or prestige. The enjoyment the consumption of a product brings us.

As economic reality bites the perceived value of spending more on fuel versus on food and other good and services decreases. We try to reduce fuel expenditures to buy other things. Or we reduce consumption other things, so that we can keep driving. Both result in demand destruction.

Jevon's Paradox states that whatever energy you are not using someone else is using. Well, that applies to every good and service in the economy. As the price of any good decreases then potential demand increases. If something is free then we can use it without any thought to having to pay for it. Visit an all you can eat buffet sometime and look at what people take on their plates versus what they consume. Shocking and somewhat gross.

However, potential demand and the ability to pay are not the same. There may be more supply than demand, but if the price is too high then potential demand is not satisfied. There may be a great demand for single-dwelling homes close to schools, parks and hospitals in quiet residential areas near workplaces, but there is a shortage of those homes. And a family's ability to pay for such a home is limited by their disposable income.

Potential demand is quite a bit higher than actual supply. Prices can decrease up to a point, but they reflect the cost of land and the replacement cost of the house itself. That is the floor. It is not an absolute floor price, but for the sake of immediate demand and prompt supply it as good as one. Extra supply in the form of new homes will only be brought to market as it becomes profitable for the builder or developer. If you have ever seen an empty lot in a city that is supply waiting for demand to catch-up to price.

So as an individual, company or nation it certainly makes economic sense to conserve energy and reduce that cost. Those savings can then be applied against other consumption and/or investment in productive assets in the future. But before you cut me off not all investments in productive assets use the same energy as saved. Although one can use those savings to buy a larger vehicle and live farther away from work again they can also be used to live closer to work and to walk. Although those savings can be used for building more freeways they can also be used to electrify railways.

The energy will get used someplace at sometime, but using 31 billion barrels of oil a year is not the same as using 31 billion over ten years. Using it to drive to Disneyland is not the same as using it to improve your infrastructure, so that it is more energy efficient or even (Holy Grail) energy self-sufficient. Reality, of course, is always different than theory! ; - )
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 09:09:19

MrBill wrote:I do not doubt the 'theoretical' underpinnings of Jevon's Paradox, which is ironically just supply and demand analysis for non-economists, engineers in particular, but to be honest I think the theory has quite a few holes in it as commonly interpreted (or misinterpreted).
The modern instantiation is termed the rebound effect, and it simply states that steps taken to reduce consumption tend not to be maximally effective. At the same time, they also tend to be worthwhile in terms of consumption, since AFAIK, I haven't seen a study stating that the rebound effect is ever 100%.

In many cases, it's easy to implement efficiency improvements such that consuming as much as before is practically impossible. For instance, switching from the average American car to an 1L car could never result in similar levels of consumption because people cannot drive ~20 hours per day. Similarly, switching from AC to evaporative cooling in some areas reduces energy requirements to the point that running the cooler 24/7 during the summer still couldn't reach what the AC was using in terms of power.

Practically, efficiency improvements tend not to be maximal, but tend to result in reduced consumption overall.
Last edited by yesplease on Wed 25 Jun 2008, 14:53:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 09:14:21

Anyway, regarding mpg, it's been suggested that this is a deliberately disingenuous method of measuring fuel efficiency and fuel costs since larger numerical differences tend to result in smaller gains and vice versa. l/100km seems more accurate, and surprise surprise, it's used by the regions w/ much higher average vehicle efficiency. ;)
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Kingcoal » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 09:22:24

That's why car pooling is so important. Go from one to two people and your 20mpg car shoots up to 40mpg. Better yet, put 4 people in your nice, roomy, SUV and you are now at 80mpg compared to those four people each driving a 20 mpg car. A lot of mid to large size SUVs have third row seating, allowing six passengers to sit comfortably. See what I mean? It really isn't the car, it's how it's used. Driving solitary in a vehicle is very inefficient. Big cars aren't inefficient compared to small cars, they are just designed to carry more passengers and often aren't used in that manor. If you have a large vehicle, car pool to gas.

It's not a linear function either. Every vehicle removed from the road helps reduce traffic - a major fuel waster. In order for a vehicle to produce a mpg figure, it needs to be, well, moving.

IMO, the SUV gets a bad rap. Most SUVs can carry four people in exceptional comfort. Trucks on the hand are a problem. I see a lot of huge pickup trucks being driven by one person with nothing in the back. A pickup truck is efficient when it's hauling something, not when it's bed is empty.

Americans need to change their mentality. Many people see a stigma attached to packing their vehicles full of passengers. Drive through poor neighborhoods and you'll see small cars overloaded with people. I guess that's where the stigma comes from.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby aahala2 » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 11:03:01

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!

Don't use the term "Jevons Paradox" for anything you damn
well please. It does NOT apply to individual consumers.


Don't take 5th hand reports describing what the paradox is
about. go the to horse's mouth, Chapter 7 of "The Coal Question".

"I speak not here of the domestic consumption of coal. This is undoubtedly capable of being cut down without other harm than curtailing our home comforts, and somewhat altering our confirmed national habits. The coal thus saved would be, for the most part, laid up for the use of posterity. But even if our population could be induced to abstain from the enjoyment of a good fire, the saving effected would not extend over more than about one-third of the total consumption of coal; the domestic consumption being, on an average, about one ton per annum, per head of the population. Of the other two-thirds, nearly one-third is used in our iron manufactures; and the remainder in our factories, furnaces, and machine shops generally.

But the economy of coal in manufactures is a different matter. It is wholly a confusion of ideas to suppose that the economical use of fuel is equivalent to a diminished consumption. The very contrary is the truth."

You should take note that the economy of energy has to do with
the efficiency in producing a product which is then used. It's NOT
in the energy efficiency of the use of the product .
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby joeltrout » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 11:15:20

Kingcoal wrote:That's why car pooling is so important. Go from one to two people and your 20mpg car shoots up to 40mpg. Better yet, put 4 people in your nice, roomy, SUV and you are now at 80mpg compared to those four people each driving a 20 mpg car. A lot of mid to large size SUVs have third row seating, allowing six passengers to sit comfortably. See what I mean? It really isn't the car, it's how it's used. Driving solitary in a vehicle is very inefficient. Big cars aren't inefficient compared to small cars, they are just designed to carry more passengers and often aren't used in that manor. If you have a large vehicle, car pool to gas.



Thank you for understanding. Most people don't.

Besides commuting to work which is only 2,450 miles per year, I regularly drive with 6-8 people in my Tahoe. When I have to miss events my friends end up taking at least 2 cars and many times 3 cars because some only have 2 seater cars.

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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby coyote » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 13:21:23

Heineken wrote:People with better-mileage vehicles will tend to drive more miles.

For some, however -- for many -- saving that many gallons will make the difference between being able to get to work or not, which will mean staying afloat or going under. We know the dizzy heights gas is likely to climb to, and it's not in the single digits. Saving 500 or 600 gallons a year under those circumstances could make a huge difference to people who must commute or lose their jobs. And that could make a difference in how long our national economy can hold itself together.

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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Denny » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 15:51:14

I recall the logic of this being explained about twenty years ago when we switched to metric. We started using L / 100 km.

But, that is the hardest mental switch to do. I think it will take our USA friends a few years yet to get used to this, even after they switch to metric.

When is the US switching to metric? I keep asking that, because that was Canada's original intent on switching, the US had announced it back in the 1970's and we did not want to be left behind. Then the U.S,. government suddenly changed its mind. After you get used to it, metric is a better system for sure.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby Heineken » Sat 21 Jun 2008, 16:13:52

coyote wrote:
Heineken wrote:People with better-mileage vehicles will tend to drive more miles.

For some, however -- for many -- saving that many gallons will make the difference between being able to get to work or not, which will mean staying afloat or going under. We know the dizzy heights gas is likely to climb to, and it's not in the single digits. Saving 500 or 600 gallons a year under those circumstances could make a huge difference to people who must commute or lose their jobs. And that could make a difference in how long our national economy can hold itself together.

Good to see you, Heineken. How's it been?


Always good to see your paw print, Coyote! And now I see they've gone and made you a news editor! Thanks in advance for all your efforts to give us interesting stuff.

You're certainly right, there are parameters to the gas price/vehicle efficiency permutations beyond which Jevon's paradox might not realistically apply.

But: I do always try to keep human nature in mind as we ponder these matters. To me it's human nature to drive more miles when the vehicle is more fuel-efficient. People are buying hybrids etc. because they are trying to hang on their existing lifestyles, not make a fundamental change. That's the basic instinct with this phenomenon.

As the gas price continues to rise, though, we enter a dark, unpredictable, and probably terrifying landscape.
Last edited by Heineken on Sat 21 Jun 2008, 22:26:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MPG illusion

Unread postby coyote » Sat 21 Jun 2008, 19:47:53

Thanks Heineken. It's good to be back. :)

I agree completely, both about human nature (Ludi might say our social nature) as it's affecting the situation now, and also about the impossibility of seeing around the corner. It's hard to make predictions about just how people might react when gas gets to $10, and then $20. Will we pull together, or will things just fall apart? If gas gets to $30, will the wealthy still take day trips in their Explorers - just because they can? And how will the new destitute - so recently living in a world of such entitlement - how will they react? Will they acquiesce to the new situation, or will they riot? What crazy fixes will our government attempt, and how badly will they go wrong?

Such a dark and frankly fascinating time. I don't know what's coming, though I once thought I did. Dratted crystal ball never did work worth a damn. :cry:
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