[dontworryaboutpeakoil]

Ok, shipping is going to be more expensive because these Ships use Diesel.

Why can't Ships mount one or two Wind Mills to generate Electricity?

There's a lot of Wind in the Oceans, is there not? So why can't Wind Mill powered Ships be a reality?

They can still use Diesel Fuel for when there is no Wind, but if there is wind, these Wind Mills can power the Ship, no?

is this a dumb idea?

[eastbay]

Sails are many thousands of times more efficient. Maybe hundreds of thousands of times more efficient.

Oceangoing ships will get smaller as time passes, and they'll use sails more and more as oil gets costlier. At some point we'll be right back to the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria... except... too bad... there won't be any trees to make them from.

[dontworryaboutpeakoil]

Sails will only work if the wind is blowing in the correct direction.

With a Wind Turbine, you can rotate the Wind Blade to the direction of the Wind so as long as there is a breeze, no matter what direction, it would work.

Say you have two 1 Million watt turbines. Isn't that enough to power the Engine and the power needs of the ship?

[Mudpuppy]

[quote]Not so. You can sail in to the wind if you tack.[align=left]

While this is true that you can go into the wind, you can never actually sail direct into the wind with sails. Instead you do a zig zag pattern so the wind is kept at most, a 45 degree angle. This zig zag pattern means you have to cover a lot more ground to go in the direction of the wind, than if the wind was behind you or from the side.

But a wind turbine that creates electricity then uses that electricity to power the ship also wouldn`t be that efficient.

However, a third option is the `wind ships` as trialed by Jaques Cousteau (I probably misspelled his name, oops).

Here is a couple of links that looks at `wind ships`.
http://glwww.mst.dk/project/NyViden/2000/07150000.htm
http://www.primidi.com/2005/03/07.html

For more on the Helix sale type of ship used by Cousteau`s `Alcion` which uses a turbo sale;
Alcion
Wikipedia_turbosail

I seem to recall one issue they had with turbosails (the icea of which has been around for a long time) is that they basically vibrate and rattle the ship to pieces.

[7-Zark-7]

There is already a working 36' catamaran with a windmill as its means of generating propulsion - Revelation II.

Looks weird at first, but it works.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1507825.stm

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/02 ... sailbo.php

Seems several people have tried this concept on a small scale.

http://uk.geocities.com/fnsnclr@btinter ... /hist4.htm

So if the technology scales up then maybe ships could harness wind power.

[mididoctors]

as propulsion is it more efficient than just using a sail?

there a bit of a problem with this idea..

Boris
London

[benzoil]

Since a modern container ship can make 20-30 knots cruising speed on its diesel engines, I don't think that wind turbines will replace their engines anytime soon. For a large ship, the cost of fuel is not as important a factor in cost of operations as you might think.

The Cousteau Society had a wind-powered research vessel at one point. It was state of the art in the late-80s/early 90s if I recall. I Googled it (windship 'Alcyone'), but can't seem to find any recent references to it.

[Judgie]

There is already a working 36' catamaran with a windmill as its means of generating propulsion - Revelation II.

Looks weird at first, but it works.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1507825.stm

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/02 ... sailbo.php

Seems several people have tried this concept on a small scale.

http://uk.geocities.com/fnsnclr@btinter ... /hist4.htm

So if the technology scales up then maybe ships could harness wind power.

In a moderate to heavy seaway, sailing vessels, whether turbine or sail, must contend with rolling and pitching. In these conditions, sail can maintain it's power output, whereas the turbine is continually in and out of it's powerband.

My advice. Don't believe in the stereotype that all sailing vessels, especially tall ships, get around at 5 knots. Remeber that the cargo carrying sailing vessels of 1850 through to 1950 (yes, large 4 to 5 masted sailing vessels were still moving wheat, wool and guano until 1950) averaged 12 - 13 knots in 24 hour periods, with many vessels known to have averaged over 17 knots, and some clippers making 20+ on the rare occasion for protracted periods of time.

Why mess around with the "propeller coupled to a propeller" solution when sail is much more efficient, and yes you can sail a square-rigger backwards. I've volunteered as unpaid crew with the One and All (www.satallships.com.au) for 7 years now, we've done so on many occasions with her. It's also suprisingly simple to enter or leave berth under sail, even into the wind with tacking and the intelligent use of mooring lines as pivots, etc.

As an added, plus, you'll find sails (the ones used on tall ships, mostly Dupont Dacron these days, not the expensive "one season and they're stuffed" kevlar and carbon fibre jobs on racing yachts) are VASTLY cheaper than you're average wind turbine, ship for ship. Believe me, sails are not a step backwards. Partcularly with the availability of CAD

That's just my 0.2 cents


P.S.
Ocean Shipping efficiency in a modern capitalist economy, is basically "moving as much as you can, as fast as you can, on time".
To do so and obtain the speeds necessary on your average modern container vessel of 75,000 through to 180,000 tons, your wind turbines will need to make anywhere from 70,000 shaft horsepower to 125,000 shafthorsepower (the output of the large Wartsila/Sulzer diesels that dominate the market, which are now being supplied with cogeneration, using the exhaust gases to drive a large gas-turbine generator, and a heat-exchanger to power a steam turbo generator and provide heating for the accomodation. Their electrical output is supplied to a large electric motor on the main-engines shaft to boost output to 180,000 horsepower approx, the most prominent application is in the Maersk/Sealand "E class" container vessels), to maintain economical service speeds of 25 to 30 knots. You'll have to use the main diesel engine anyway to maintain those speeds OR you can put them on a much smaller vessel, 60 to 100 meters or so by which time sail comes into it's own.

[dutchcyclist]

Kites can be a solution too: they can easily be retrofitted on existing vessels, wich is impossible with normal masts+sails.
This german company is doing research: http://www.skysails.info/index.php?L=1

[Judgie]

Kites can be a solution too: they can easily be retrofitted on existing vessels, wich is impossible with normal masts+sails.
This german company is doing research: http://www.skysails.info/index.php?L=1

Yes, however on the large vessels they are targeted at (that are used to support the CURRENT global economy), they could at most produce only 15% of the required service speed for efficiency.

In many of the scenarios we are looking at, the vessels themselves will be downsized, at which point you're better off looking at semi-conventional or conventional sail configurations. The Maltese Falcon handles the semi-conventional situation quite nicely:



Free standing 360 degree rotating masts. Unfortunately not terribly feasible with the demise of cheap oil.


On another note, I am continously impressed with the ability for kite-surfer's to work into the wind, however the wind-surfers with a conventional mast and sail still seem to have them beat in this department. You can't get the air with a windsurfer that you can get with a kite-surfing system though :D

[Hagakure_Leofman]

I can't see how this would work. Wouldn't this be some kind of "perpetual motion" vehicle? I.e. the drag created by the windmill would be greater than the energy generated so you'd have a net loss of energy a la the the second law of thermodynamics.
I recall someone asked something similar on the radio about cars that generate electricity while breaking, and so the question was,

"if these cars generate electricity while breaking that charges the battery that runs the car, why can't we drive around with the brakes lightly depressed, thus generating enough electricity not to have to charge the car?"

Even if you were moving into the wind (thus presumably generating the most electricity), the resulting drag would exceed the power yielded? Sails work because they harness the wind and convert it to motion directly. Generating electricity from wind and driving a propeller from the stored electricity would surely result is a loss of energy.

Or am I missing something?

[Beagle]

Wind is out there to use for free. The sun and the earths rotation are the energy sources. The sail is the in effect a "free energy" device. We've had sails for thousands of years but the technology only truly came into its own in the late 19th and 20th centuries just before we abandoned it for cheap oil. The fore and aft schooner rig that developed during that time is incredibly efficient at harnessing the wind energy and for the world tradewind routes the square rigged vessels of the time represented an awesome level of technological sophistication.

You could put a wind generator on a ship like you've been discussing but why bother. You lose efficiency (energy) every time you convert energy from one type to another. Why bother with wind to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, electrical to mechanical and finally mechanical to motive when wind to motive works fine and is the most efficient.

If the world wants to save lots of fuel just mandate that all ships be required to lower their cruising speeds by a couple knots. Fuel consumption for any given ship follows an exponential curve against speed. After reaching about 80% of full speed half as much fuel is burned again by pushing a ship the last few knots faster through the water. Multiply those fuel savings by the 100 000 + ships out there and it adds up pretty fast. The world has been wasting an aweful lot of oil shipping plastic crap ridiculously fast across oceans for which there is really no need.

Personally, I can't wait till the return of commercial sail. I'm sick of big, noisy and smelly diesel engines. They are a pain in the ass to maintain too.

[MonteQuest]

Wind is out there to use for free. The sun and the earths rotation are the energy sources.

Earth's rotation?

It is the uneven heating of the earth's surface that causes the wind to blow.

[Ludi]

Wind is out there to use for free. The sun and the earths rotation are the energy sources.

Earth's rotation?

It is the uneven heating of the earth's surface that causes the wind to blow.

You mean it isn't caused by Earth whooshing through space??

[MonteQuest]

Wind is out there to use for free.

Free?

When you take the energy out of the wind, what now does without that energy? What processes does the wind power?

There is no such thing as a free lunch or free energy.

[Revi]

A guy in Maine tried to get commercial sail going again in the 80's, but cheap oil did him in. I have thought that now may be the time to get a pinky schooner and use it as a kind of a floating pickup truck in the near future. You can go up into a cove, let the tide go out and unload it anywhere.

It may be the vehicle of the future.

http://www.schoonersummertime.com/smrship.html

Unfortunately most of the boats out there would be almost worthless as useful vessels if we really needed them.

[Beagle]

When you take the energy out of the wind, what now does without that energy? What processes does the wind power?

I don't understand your point Montequest. When you put up a sail and use its energy you redirect it and in the process it slows somewhat. This is nothing more than things like trees or mountains do. You are correct - it is not free to use the energy. It takes work and resources to harness; One has to make the sails etc. However, the wind itself is there, i.e. it doesn't cost anything to produce. Notice "free energy" is in quotes.

It is the uneven heating of the earth's surface that causes the wind to blow.

So true. Silly me, it seems I forgot to mention that...but it seems like your implying that the rotation of the earth has little to do with it, in which case you'd be wrong.

[Judgie]

Wind is out there to use for free. The sun and the earths rotation are the energy sources. The sail is the in effect a "free energy" device. We've had sails for thousands of years but the technology only truly came into its own in the late 19th and 20th centuries just before we abandoned it for cheap oil. The fore and aft schooner rig that developed during that time is incredibly efficient at harnessing the wind energy and for the world tradewind routes the square rigged vessels of the time represented an awesome level of technological sophistication.

You could put a wind generator on a ship like you've been discussing but why bother. You lose efficiency (energy) every time you convert energy from one type to another. Why bother with wind to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, electrical to mechanical and finally mechanical to motive when wind to motive works fine and is the most efficient.

If the world wants to save lots of fuel just mandate that all ships be required to lower their cruising speeds by a couple knots. Fuel consumption for any given ship follows an exponential curve against speed. After reaching about 80% of full speed half as much fuel is burned again by pushing a ship the last few knots faster through the water. Multiply those fuel savings by the 100 000 + ships out there and it adds up pretty fast. The world has been wasting an aweful lot of oil shipping plastic crap ridiculously fast across oceans for which there is really no need.

Personally, I can't wait till the return of commercial sail. I'm sick of big, noisy and smelly diesel engines. They are a pain in the ass to maintain too.

Agreed

[mos6507]

Wind is out there to use for free.

Free?

When you take the energy out of the wind, what now does without that energy? What processes does the wind power?

There is no such thing as a free lunch or free energy.

Do you have any studies that quantify the negative impact of massive wind use? It seems like it would be hugging so close to the surface that it would only be a small percent of total wind.