[mos6507]

Here we go folks. Right on schedule:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e ... 380921.ece

[Ludi]

There go the forests.


The forests of history

[HEADER_RACK]

It travels at a top speed of eight knots, about half as fast as a modern cargo vessel.

We are 5 per cent more expensive than standard merchant shipping companies at the moment.

predicting that wind-powered vessels could capture 0.5 per cent of the commercial shipping market

There she blows folks........ literally

[Tanada]

I bet you dollars to doughnuts the USS Nimitz could be converted to carry containerized cargo and would out preform any potential fleet of wind powered cargo ships.

[mos6507]

There go the forests.

Who says you have to make a tall ship in the 21st century out of lumber?

[Ludi]

Plastic? Aluminum?

What do you think?

[JPL]

There go the forests.

Who says you have to make a tall ship in the 21st century out of lumber?

In England from about the 14'th century on, trees were planted & trained in a particular way for the ship-building industry. As ships became larger the curved shapes for keels etc. could only be done by bending the oak over whilst it was growing so it would attain a certain size and (more importantly) shape.

It could take 60-100 years to grow the correct timber but it was part of an on-going process, you wouldn't see the results of your own labours but you could rely on those of previous generations, etc. etc.

All in all, traditional ship-building is quite a skill, & takes a certain amount of forward planning.

Or we can build them out of aluminium & carbon fibre, as you suggest, & dispense with all the messing around in the woodland thing & all those boring carpentry skills of a previous age. The end result is the same, I guess. Ho humm...

JP

[entropyfails]

I would imagine that autonomous wind vessels would be the real win in the modern era. You don't have to feed a crew (maybe you need to keep a captain on board for legal reason, maybe have a group of captain that can board as the ship approaches national waters.) You don't have to care as much about how long it takes or loosing ships (thus making for far cheaper insurance after the technology is proven) If you make them out of polymers they would be much cheaper than old wooden ships too.

Of course, no one has designed such a ship nor the control systems to operate it. But that is mostly engineering at this point. The science behind all of that is sound, well known, and "plug-in" ready. It is more of a situation where we are in a race, the runners are circling the track, but we haven't even noticed the starting gun has fired.

[kokoda]

Actually I kind of like the idea of tall ships ... but it is more likely that this will be the future of sail.

http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/01/29/tra ... akes-sail/

[JPL]

I would imagine that autonomous wind vessels would be the real win in the modern era. You don't have to feed a crew (maybe you need to keep a captain on board for legal reason, maybe have a group of captain that can board as the ship approaches national waters.) You don't have to care as much about how long it takes or loosing ships (thus making for far cheaper insurance after the technology is proven) If you make them out of polymers they would be much cheaper than old wooden ships too.

Of course, no one has designed such a ship nor the control systems to operate it. But that is mostly engineering at this point. The science behind all of that is sound, well known, and "plug-in" ready. It is more of a situation where we are in a race, the runners are circling the track, but we haven't even noticed the starting gun has fired.

Huh???

When I last read my history books, the technology was pretty well perfected. Looks like this:



BTW: The computer-controlled version doesn't work too well but the tried & tested one with 40 sailors, plenty of rope, a steel-jawed captain, tar & salt beef used to work just fine.

Get you anywhere in the world. Just not in luxury. And, yes, there were real pirates 200 years ago. That was part of the fun of it (grin).

JP

[entropyfails]

Huh???

When I last read my history books, the technology was pretty well perfected. Looks like this:

BTW: The computer-controlled version doesn't work too well but the tried & tested one with 40 sailors, plenty of rope, a steel-jawed captain, tar & salt beef used to work just fine.

Get you anywhere in the world. Just not in luxury. And, yes, there were real pirates 200 years ago. That was part of the fun of it (grin).

JP

40 sailors take a lot of money to feed, maintain and insure. The open ocean is fairly easy to navigate as it has few physical impediments to get in your way. The only issue is how the boat handles in a storm. A well placed X-Prize would go a long way in this domain.

A company with robotic controlled ships will easily out-compete a company employing 40 people per ship. As far as techno-fixes go, this would be a good opportunity for someone to exploit.

[Commanding_Heights]

Huh???

When I last read my history books, the technology was pretty well perfected. Looks like this:

BTW: The computer-controlled version doesn't work too well but the tried & tested one with 40 sailors, plenty of rope, a steel-jawed captain, tar & salt beef used to work just fine.

Get you anywhere in the world. Just not in luxury. And, yes, there were real pirates 200 years ago. That was part of the fun of it (grin).

JP

40 sailors take a lot of money to feed, maintain and insure. The open ocean is fairly easy to navigate as it has few physical impediments to get in your way. The only issue is how the boat handles in a storm. A well placed X-Prize would go a long way in this domain.

A company with robotic controlled ships will easily out-compete a company employing 40 people per ship. As far as techno-fixes go, this would be a good opportunity for someone to exploit.

And who's going to stop the pirates?

[cube]

I would imagine that autonomous wind vessels would be the real win in the modern era. You don't have to feed a crew (maybe you need to keep a captain on board for legal reason, maybe have a group of captain that can board as the ship approaches national waters.) You don't have to care as much about how long it takes or loosing ships (thus making for far cheaper insurance after the technology is proven) If you make them out of polymers they would be much cheaper than old wooden ships too.
...

*cough* I disagree.
Speed is important.
If it takes twice as much time to transport something then that means only half as much cargo can be transported in a given year. That's an awful lot of "lost business" to lose.

half speed --> half cargo per year --> half income

[JPL]

Huh???

When I last read my history books, the technology was pretty well perfected. Looks like this:

BTW: The computer-controlled version doesn't work too well but the tried & tested one with 40 sailors, plenty of rope, a steel-jawed captain, tar & salt beef used to work just fine.

Get you anywhere in the world. Just not in luxury. And, yes, there were real pirates 200 years ago. That was part of the fun of it (grin).

JP

40 sailors take a lot of money to feed, maintain and insure. The open ocean is fairly easy to navigate as it has few physical impediments to get in your way. The only issue is how the boat handles in a storm. A well placed X-Prize would go a long way in this domain.

A company with robotic controlled ships will easily out-compete a company employing 40 people per ship. As far as techno-fixes go, this would be a good opportunity for someone to exploit.

I was referring (growl) to what is actually do-able in a post-industrial society. If you are in any doubt about what I say, then I refer you to every single post I have put up here, which are mainly to do with the fact that we have lost far more in the last 200 years than we have painfully gained in the preceeding 4000.

So enjoy your dreams of robotic ships. With respect to your status as a Mod and the CoC I will not let rip with what I want to say, nevertheless, consider it said.

JP

[JPL]

And who's going to stop the pirates?

By having 20 guns per deck and an extra ration of rum for all men, after the battle. Claret for the officers and an equal share of spoils for all from top to bottom.

Surprising how the world used to work before oil, isn't it? 18'th century technology wasn't that different from our own. We just think it is because we have liquid fuels & they didn't.



JP

[mos6507]

It will not be simply a recreation of the past. The successful technologies of the future will leverage what we can from the past and use everything we have now to compensate for the things we can no longer do (like decimate the forests to build ships). We will NOT be filling WalMart with goods blown in on tall ships, but since international trade predates oil, it will certainly outlive it.

And before anyone mentions it, the sky sails thing is actually a pretty poor application of wind technology since it only works when the wind is blowing in the same direction the ship is going.

[jbrovont]

Depending on what part of the world you're sailing in, there are some circular trade routes that can be made with sailing ships where you can run with the wind most of the way. Hence "trade winds," but who knows how climate change will be affecting these in the next hundred years.

I would think large clippers made of fiberglass and carbon fiber could carry more and make better time into the wind, but who knows. I'm not sure that's ever been tried. Maybe the aircraft carrier conversion isn't too far off - huge nuclear vessels might be the best way to go for a while.

[cube]

And before anyone mentions it, the sky sails thing is actually a pretty poor application of wind technology since it only works when the wind is blowing in the same direction the ship is going.

A sail boat has -> lateral forces acting on the sails -> bends the masts -> and this "twists" ship's hull. These forces are absolutely tremendous, even more so then the longitudinal forces that "push" the ship.
A sailing ship's hull has to be structurally designed / reinforced to handle these forces at great cost. MUCH more so then a regular ship.
A lot of people conveniently do not think about the "structural engineering" aspects of a sail boat that's why so many people wrongly assume it must be cheaper because it uses no fuel.
WRONG
It's not that simple.
You save money by not having an engine but there is a huge premium to pay for having a structurally reinforced hull.

The sky-sails concept isn't so bad. The forces are applied longitudinally which makes it adaptable to a regular ship.

[mos6507]

A sailing ship's hull has to be structurally designed / reinforced to handle these forces at great cost. MUCH more so then a regular ship.

Can you put a number on "at great cost".

[cube]

A sailing ship's hull has to be structurally designed / reinforced to handle these forces at great cost. MUCH more so then a regular ship.

Can you put a number on "at great cost".

Owning a sailboat is like standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 bills.

Is that good enough for you?
//
*warning maybe controversial reply*
I think some people here suffer from an affliction which I call (favorite technology bias) FTB. People who suffer from this affliction pick a technology and ALWAYS support it regardless of the situation no matter what. The idea that perhaps a particular technology may be advantageous for a specific situation and inappropriate for another situation is out of the question. To a person who has FTB the sh!t never smells. The more evidence to suggest otherwise the deeper these folks like to dig their heels into the ground.
EV cars, windmills, railroads, sailing ships: these
are common favorites for people who have FTB on this website
//
I may sound harsh but in reality,
I am here to learn something new.
If you know something that I don't ---> tell me!
Is there some advantage / disadvantage / comparison?
speed, capacity, human labor, cost, service life, travel routes, utility, etc...
Please do not just sit there and say sail boat -> no fuel -> must be GOOD!!!
I'm sorry folks that's not a very deep discussion.
I don't see myself getting that much "value" out of such a conversation.
OTOH if you have nothing to offer me please excuse me if I take a bow and leave.