[Rod_Cloutier]

It seems to me that the everyday economy of you and me is tiny compared the the millions/billions/trillions being traded daily on the world markets. What would really happen if people actually tried to spend all these obscene amounts of money on actual goods?

A few years ago, an investment company (I don't remember their name) tried to talk me and my wife into a debt consolidation loan; their scheme was that any savings they were able to produce by reducing our monthly debt payments, we could then invest with them to buy shares in their investments. Sounded tempting at first, lower monthly payments on debt and invest the difference? When I looked closer however their whole 'investment strategy' was simply gambling. Buying and selling shares in various mutual fund companies, never knowing how or where the money was actually going.

We backed out of this offer. I said to them 'don't you care' that this money could be used unethical purposes?? What if the money ends up being used to manufacture weapons, or contribute to cancer deaths by being spent by tobacco companies or if it contributes to deforestation and the ruination of the enviroment by being lent to forestry companies? They said at that point 'quite frankly, we don't care how the money is used we only care about the rate of return'. This attitude, in my opinion, is why the world is really at a crossroads.

Nobody cares how the money gets used, so long as it produces a high rate of return! So all ethical, social and moral restrictions regarding ethical investing are thrown to the wind. All investments get bunched together in mutual funds where nobody knows or cares where it really is at any given point in time. So the numbers grow without limit. You get the current 'casino economy' that we have now. Where the monetary value of investments held is many hundreds of times the actual GDP of our economies, with all kinds of evil is being done all over the world in the sake of 'high interest return'.

So really the world economy is the relative size of an ant- with the monies of the world casting a long shadow behind it the size of an elephant. How long till people wake up and see the ant's true size??

[ohanian]

Not only do we NOT care about how our money get used. We don't even care where our food comes from. Or who makes our iPhones or condoms.

Hell, we don't even care what brand of computers render the latest Pixar movie. What if those computers had CPUs that are made in China?

[Ferretlover]

How long till people wake up and see the ant's true size??

For many, many years nearly all people have operated on the "do whatever *you* want--as long as it doesn't affect my life and lifestyle."
Even when they are out of gas, out of money, and out of food you will see that this attitude will not change. Someone, somewhere, will come to save them, so they just have to hold on for a bit until life gets back to normal.

Not going to happen.

[ReverseEngineer]

Not only do we NOT care about how our money get used. We don't even care where our food comes from. Or who makes our iPhones or condoms.

Hell, we don't even care what brand of computers render the latest Pixar movie. What if those computers had CPUs that are made in China?

For one summer in my high school years I worked in a shower curtain factory inthe garment district of NYC. Before all this stuff got sent off to China. My job that summer was to put the grommets into the top of the shower curtain. Outrageously boring work, mind numbing. But I was saving up for college, and actually used the money I earned tat year to buy one of the first Scientific Calculators, a Hewlett Packard 45 to repalce my trusty Slide Rule.

Every day all of us wear clothing and use products built in sweatshops around the world, we think nothing of it. I walk into Walmart, and some fabulous little watches are available to buy for about nothing. Sorry folks, these watches and the clothing are NOT magically produced by machines that do it automatically. Somewhere in the world is a person just like you whose entire life revolves around sewing the seams on the pants you wear or busies herself with tweezers putting together the tiny dials on one of these watches.

To you, you think "Its just Chinese People. The are used to living like that".

Sorry, anybody can be turned into a Slave, and so you all were, just very well paid ones for a while wo lived upon the work of a lower class f slaves below you. The mirage is gone now, and the field is levelled. I do not care if you were worth $100M a few weeks ago, right now you have no more wealth than I do.

Its the Zero Point. Divide $5000 by Zero, you have Zero. Divide $1,000,000 by Zero, you still get Zero. Divide a TRILLION or my by Zero, what do you get? Still Zero. This is Mathematics my friends, its just pure logic and you cannot deny it with smoke and mirrors.

I learned my mathematics very early on in life, it served me well and got me into an Ivy League school mostly populated by the scions of the wealthy. I got there though after working a summer putting the grommets in the top of shower curtains. I UNDERSTAND what it means to use numbers to manipulate the lives of others, good grief I KNOW how to do it. It is not RIGHT to do that, it is EVIL. I foreswore it when I left Drexel, I ask all of you who believe it is right to live at the expense of another to foreswear this ALSO.

Take only what you need to live from the world, no more. Help others, teach the children. Live simply and peacefully with your neighbors. I know this will not happen at the Zero Point, it is just advice for the aftermath. I won't be there, I will be on the Other Side.

Reverse Engineer

[TWilliam]

Everything living eats, and is eaten.

'Morality' is a social construct, one that is a byproduct of abundance. Or as Twain put it, "Principles have little force, except when one is well fed."

Slaves always far outnumber their masters. They remain slaves by choice, because most prefer life as a slave to death as a martyr, even if one's death may mean liberation for one's brethren. Humans are ultimately selfish, every single one of us. Even the most magnanimous...

[nobodypanic]

i think i agree w/RE.

the problem is greed. the problem is that the unrestrained and unlimited aquistion of wealth is the driving force for human beings, and as long as that is the case, we have little hope.

on the math side... you can't divivde by zero. that's a big no no. undefined.

[nobodypanic]

Everything living eats, and is eaten.

'Morality' is a social construct, one that is a byproduct of abundance. Or as Twain put it, "Principles have little force, except when one is well fed."

Slaves always far outnumber their masters. They remain slaves by choice, because most prefer life as a slave to death as a martyr, even if one's death may mean liberation for one's brethren. Humans are ultimately selfish, every single one of us. Even the most magnanimous...

i disagree. this might appear to be the case at this point in time, but i don't think it's an unalterable characteristic of human nature. there is the cultural component: western capitalism is predicated on greed--it's considered a virtue! and so long as it is the dominant cultural paradigm, well then greed rules. change the culture.

[TWilliam]

i disagree. this might appear to be the case at this point in time, but i don't think it's an unalterable characteristic of human nature. there is the cultural component: western capitalism is predicated on greed--it's considered a virtue! and so long as it is the dominant cultural paradigm, well then greed rules. change the culture.

You're welcome to disagree nobody, but IMO you are mistaken. It has nothing to do with greed being a virtue, it has to do with it being a fundamental expression of the survival instinct.

Morals as a social construct developed precisely for the purpose of holding our basic instincts in check so that we can function effectively in groups, since doing so increases the chances of our individual survival in the face of the vicissitudes of life. They too are ultimately based in selfishness.

Acquisitive capitalism is nothing more than the re-assertion of that basic self-interest that is always present beneath the facade of the social contract.

[nobodypanic]

i disagree. this might appear to be the case at this point in time, but i don't think it's an unalterable characteristic of human nature. there is the cultural component: western capitalism is predicated on greed--it's considered a virtue! and so long as it is the dominant cultural paradigm, well then greed rules. change the culture.

You're welcome to disagree nobody, but IMO you are mistaken. It has nothing to do with greed being a virtue, it has to do with it being a fundamental expression of the survival instinct.

Morals as a social construct developed precisely for the purpose of holding our basic instincts in check so that we can function effectively in groups, since doing so increases the chances of our individual survival in the face of the vicissitudes of life. They too are ultimately based in selfishness.

Acquisitive capitalism is nothing more than the re-assertion of that basic self-interest that is always present beneath the facade of the social contract.

imho, you're sort of wrong. cooperation and sharing are also fundamental expressions of the survival instinct. i don't see why greed should be granted a more fundamental existence.

the dominant culture in a sense suppresses those aspects of human nature relative to simple greed.

also, reducing every single behavior to selfishness really short circuits any argument whatsoever.

[Auntie_Cipation]

...walk into Walmart...

Ah, I think you've described the problem quite succinctly.

[dsula]

Divide $5000 by Zero, you have Zero. Divide $1,000,000 by Zero, you still get Zero. Divide a TRILLION or my by Zero, what do you get? Still Zero. This is Mathematics my friends, its just pure logic and you cannot deny it with smoke and mirrors.

Are you serious? You might want to double check that. But then again your name is reverseengineer and you probably don't do much math in life, as opposed to a REAL engineer.

[Ferretlover]

Morals as a social construct developed precisely for the purpose of holding our basic instincts in check so that we can function effectively in groups, since doing so increases the chances of our individual survival in the face of the vicissitudes of life. They too are ultimately based in selfishness.

Oh, well said, TWilliam!

[Quinny]

Yeah its maths, but it's the wrong answer!

Not only do we NOT care about how our money get used. We don't even care where our food comes from. Or who makes our iPhones or condoms.Hell, we don't even care what brand of computers render the latest Pixar movie. What if those computers had CPUs that are made in China?

Its the Zero Point. Divide $5000 by Zero, you have Zero. Divide $1,000,000 by Zero, you still get Zero. Divide a TRILLION or my by Zero, what do you get? Still Zero. This is Mathematics my friends, its just pure logic and you cannot deny it with smoke and mirrors.
I learned my mathematics very early on in life, it served me well and got me into an Ivy League school mostly populated by the scions of the wealthy. I got there though after working a summer putting the grommets in the top of shower curtains. I UNDERSTAND what it means to use numbers to manipulate the lives of others, good grief I KNOW how to do it. It is not RIGHT to do that, it is EVIL. I foreswore it when I left Drexel, I ask all of you who believe it is right to live at the expense of another to foreswear this ALSO.
Take only what you need to live from the world, no more. Help others, teach the children. Live simply and peacefully with your neighbors. I know this will not happen at the Zero Point, it is just advice for the aftermath. I won't be there, I will be on the Other Side.

[threadbear]

Twilliams, Have you read Man's Search for Meaning, by Victor Frankyl? If you haven't, you should. It outlines that some of us take our morality to the grave, regardless of circumstances. It's one of the most uplifting books I've ever read, written while Frankyl was incarcerated in a concentration camp, during WW2.

[TWilliam]

imho, you're sort of wrong. cooperation and sharing are also fundamental expressions of the survival instinct. i don't see why greed should be granted a more fundamental existence.

That was my point; social mores (cooperation, sharing etc.) are ultimately based in a personal desire to increase one's odds of surviving. Whether one is conscious of this on a personal level or not is irrelevant; that fundamental motivation is still present. Greed and altruism, tho' seemingly opposites, spring ultimately from the same drive. The vernacular is 'enlightened self-interest'...

Twilliams, Have you read Man's Search for Meaning, by Victor Frankyl? If you haven't, you should. It outlines that some of us take our morality to the grave, regardless of circumstances. It's one of the most uplifting books I've ever read, written while Frankyl was incarcerated in a concentration camp, during WW2.

I haven't yet had the pleasure thread, tho' I'm familiar with his overall conclusions. One that I found particularly interesting was his observation that those in the camps who had the highest probability of survival were those who helped others to survive. As I maintain, altruism is a survival tactic, even if unconsciously so, and is thus ultimately selfish.

Don't get me wrong in all of this. I'm not arguing against moral behavior; indeed, it will be absolutely essential if we as a species are to survive what's coming. My point was simply that it's not fundamental to our nature, not in the manner that greed, for example, is. Morality is something that emerged only as reflective self-awareness entered our experience, and as such it is only a tertiary trait.

[nobodypanic]

imho, you're sort of wrong. cooperation and sharing are also fundamental expressions of the survival instinct. i don't see why greed should be granted a more fundamental existence.

That was my point; social mores (cooperation, sharing etc.) are ultimately based in a personal desire to increase one's odds of surviving. Whether one is conscious of this on a personal level or not is irrelevant; that fundamental motivation is still present. Greed and altruism, tho' seemingly opposites, spring ultimately from the same drive. The vernacular is 'enlightened self-interest'...

Twilliams, Have you read Man's Search for Meaning, by Victor Frankyl? If you haven't, you should. It outlines that some of us take our morality to the grave, regardless of circumstances. It's one of the most uplifting books I've ever read, written while Frankyl was incarcerated in a concentration camp, during WW2.

I haven't yet had the pleasure thread, tho' I'm familiar with his overall conclusions. One that I found particularly interesting was his observation that those in the camps who had the highest probability of survival were those who helped others to survive. As I maintain, altruism is a survival tactic, even if unconsciously so, and is thus ultimately selfish.

Don't get me wrong in all of this. I'm not arguing against moral behavior; indeed, it will be absolutely essential if we as a species are to survive what's coming. My point was simply that it's not fundamental to our nature, not in the manner that greed, for example, is. Morality is something that emerged only as reflective self-awareness entered our experience, and as such it is only a tertiary trait.

cooperation and sharing aren't just mores. if i recall my biology correctly, eukaryotic cells display symbiosis: cooperation and sharing between them and the prokaryotes living within them that eventually led to what we have today. corals also display symbiosis between polyp and the algae contained within. neither of these could possibly be an example of cooperation as a social or moral construct or of any sort of reflective self-awareness, and yet there they are.

greed and selfishness are not anymore fundamental to our nature than cooperation and selflessness. and all of them are primal instincts that evolved to ensure species, and not individual, survival.

the social construct in operation here is to be found in the attempted reduction of the pallet of human instinctual behaivor to nothing more than selfishness.

[Snowrunner]

greed and selfishness are not anymore fundamental to our nature than cooperation and selflessness. and all of them are primal instincts that evolved to ensure species, and not individual, survival.

I think you're defining greed too narowlly. Essentially greed means I get what I want / need, if someone else gets something in return is secondary.

Nature, with symbiotic relationships, shows exactly this, if one of the two creatures living in symbiosis wouldn't give the other creature something they need the relationship would quickly end.
It IS greed, but not necessarily in the human way (read: me me me).

[nobodypanic]

greed and selfishness are not anymore fundamental to our nature than cooperation and selflessness. and all of them are primal instincts that evolved to ensure species, and not individual, survival.

Nature, with symbiotic relationships, shows exactly this, if one of the two creatures living in symbiosis wouldn't give the other creature something they need the relationship would quickly end.

that's called cooperation.
edit: you guys are defining it far far too liberally.

from wiki...

Greed is the selfish desire for or pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others.

Greed denotes desire to acquire wealth or possessions beyond the needs of the individual, especially when this accumulation of possession denies others legitimate needs or access to those or other resources.

[ohanian]

Divide $5000 by Zero, you have Zero. Divide $1,000,000 by Zero, you still get Zero. Divide a TRILLION or my by Zero, what do you get? Still Zero. This is Mathematics my friends, its just pure logic and you cannot deny it with smoke and mirrors.

Are you serious? You might want to double check that. But then again your name is reverseengineer and you probably don't do much math in life, as opposed to a REAL engineer.

I think ReverseEngineer is neither engineer nor mathematician.

On my calculator, when I divide 5000 by zero, I get "Error Inf result". On my friend's calculator, he gets "Err Div by Zero".

I would recommend that ReverseEngineer reads the following website: link

[Snowrunner]

greed and selfishness are not anymore fundamental to our nature than cooperation and selflessness. and all of them are primal instincts that evolved to ensure species, and not individual, survival.

Nature, with symbiotic relationships, shows exactly this, if one of the two creatures living in symbiosis wouldn't give the other creature something they need the relationship would quickly end.

that's called cooperation.
edit: you guys are defining it far far too liberally.

from wiki...

Greed is the selfish desire for or pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others.

Greed denotes desire to acquire wealth or possessions beyond the needs of the individual, especially when this accumulation of possession denies others legitimate needs or access to those or other resources.

That's a human definition of Greed, in case you haven't noticed animals don't have possessions, but there are well documented cases where animals prevent rivals from getting to THEIR food