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Lehman CDS priced

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Day Of Reckoning

Unread postby Cabrone » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 07:40:12

Could this be the day the system goes supernova?

One serious anxiety concerns the auction today to settle liabilities on insurance - or credit default swaps - on debt of the collapsed investment bank, Lehman Brothers.
As I noted a couple of weeks ago, there are estimates that claims under insurance contracts will total $400bn. Sandy Chen of Panmure was one of the first to highlight the scale of this looming problem.
If demands for payment are as big as $400bn, there will be pain for banks, insurers, hedge funds and other financial institutions.
Here's why.
For every winner in a claim, there is a loser, the underwriter who has to divvy up. And if the underwriter lacks the resources to pay - which may turn out to be the case in this under-regulated market - that creates two losers: viz the bust underwriter and the claimant which doesn't get the money on which it was counting.
And if that claimant had been calculating its own financial strength on the basis that it had insurance against its Lehman debt, well then failure to receive payment could shatter the integrity of its balance sheet. Which in turn would create potential losers among its creditors.
So this day of reckoning on Lehman credit default swaps is momentous - and it could not come at a worse time for fragile bank shares.


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Re: Day Of Reckoning

Unread postby Armageddon » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 09:10:23

The PPT will pump in everything they have today.
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Re: Day Of Reckoning

Unread postby jasonraymondson » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 09:21:27

I actually think stocks will go up today. I think we will end this week on a positive note, if not, then it will be a very bad note and possibly a 10% drop
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Re: Day Of Reckoning

Unread postby Bas » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 09:28:01

dow futures are about 4% lower at 8250...we'll see in five minutes what that means....

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Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 10:42:23

9.75 cents on the dollar. per CNBC this is initial price, final price could be lower.
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 10:46:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 10:45:55

Source?

Analysis?

Anything?

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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby hope_full » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 10:55:42

This was on CNBC's SQUAWK BOX with Mark Haines this morning (about 10:45 am). I heard it as well. After his female co-host talked about this Mark said, "And I suppose this is good news?"

Mark Haines is THE man.
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby RdSnt » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 11:13:59

Turning $400 billion into something under $4 billion is never a good thing.
Check this out:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/99286-s ... ises-ahead

The big event though is that this is the first opportunity for a large group of cds's to be "marked to market". What follows then is we have a better idea of what all CDS's are worth. As I've mentioned before, in the current market all CDS's essentially are worthless.

Now we get to see the scramble, and lawsuits, as everyone attempts to avoid paying the defaults that the CDS's have just failed to cover.
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 11:17:27

Agreed. This is the thing they were all trying to avoid; a market price on these things.

Silver Lining: They got priced before Treasury was able to pay .50 on the dollar with taxpayer money.
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby Niagara » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 11:21:31

hope_full wrote:This was on CNBC's SQUAWK BOX with Mark Haines this morning (about 10:45 am). I heard it as well. After his female co-host talked about this Mark said, "And I suppose this is good news?"

Mark Haines is THE man.

Yes, Mark is the man.

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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby seahorse2 » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:04:05

What price was expected on the auction?
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby gnm » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:06:59

So potentially trillions in financial assets could decline 90%?

Well no sweat then.... And here we were all worried...
:-D

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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby RdSnt » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:28:24

Not "could", "are".
It's actually much worse than that, if you can believe it. Because the derivatives have been packaged in extremely complex tranches it is impossible to unravel the liabilities. No one actually knows who is "supposed to" pay.
Yet, the expected revenues from them have been borrowed against and heavily leveraged to buy other assets.
Because the tranches are so huge (~$700 trillion) and complex there is no possibility of unravelling them, simply because we don't have the staff or the time to do it.

So in practical terms the tranches are worthless. This is why there has been so much effort put into propping up what is essentaily a dead system. How do you write off assets that are nominally worth 10 times the global gdp?

gnm wrote:So potentially trillions in financial assets could decline 90%?

Well no sweat then.... And here we were all worried...
:-D

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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby gnm » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:39:34

RdSnt wrote:So in practical terms the tranches are worthless. This is why there has been so much effort put into propping up what is essentaily a dead system. How do you write off assets that are nominally worth 10 times the global gdp?


Inflate the global GDP 11 times thus "hiding" the massive losses in the form of impoverishing everyone via inflation?

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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby RdSnt » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:48:11

HAHA :-D sorry no, that won't work. Actually it wouldn't change anything but add zeros to the figures. You have to inflate the fiat currencies without inflating the obligations.

gnm wrote:
RdSnt wrote:So in practical terms the tranches are worthless. This is why there has been so much effort put into propping up what is essentaily a dead system. How do you write off assets that are nominally worth 10 times the global gdp?


Inflate the global GDP 11 times thus "hiding" the massive losses in the form of impoverishing everyone via inflation?

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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 13:47:44

Exposing the depths of my ignorance here.....

What would happen if we simply declared all CDS contracts null and void? Vaporize them?

Sounds to me like it is all just a bunch of boys playing dress up with Monopoly Money anyway?

How does it effect the real world? How would it effect me?

Serious, though potentially stupid, question.
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby Jotapay » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 13:49:54

Newfie wrote:Exposing the depths of my ignorance here.....

What would happen if we simply declared all CDS contracts null and void? Vaporize them?

Sounds to me like it is all just a bunch of boys playing dress up with Monopoly Money anyway?

How does it effect the real world? How would it effect me?

Serious, though potentially stupid, question.


I've been wondering the same thing.
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby MOCKBA » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 13:53:19

Newfie wrote:How does it effect the real world? How would it effect me?

You won't be able to afford food and basic necessities...
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby skeptik » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 14:12:13

MOCKBA wrote:
Newfie wrote:How does it effect the real world? How would it effect me?

You won't be able to afford food and basic necessities...

Why?

Mostly ( for some reason that I dont really understand) they exist in equal and opposite pairs which just net out to zero.

Just declare all CDS null and void. If as is claimed they are a form of insurance they should have been regulated under individual State law. As they are not regulated they're illegal. So they're not insurance... in which case they're a form of unregulated betting and equally illegal.

Some will win some lose. It should have the immediate effect of restoring trust in the financial markets, which seems to be the major problem.
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Re: Lehman CDS priced

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 14:14:48

per CNBC now down to 8.625 cents on the dollar.
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