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Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby Economix » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 15:41:59

Today's Wall Street Journal (10-10-08) contains the following headline: "THE OFFICIAL DEMISE OF THE OIL BUBBLE"

I have three questions for our forum crowd:
1. Are we fools? In other words, was all of that Peak Oil talk just a lot of blather, similar to the old Dot Com "New Economy" nonsense?
2. Did people like us contribute to the Oil Bubble?
3. Is it time for us to be honest and admit we were wrong?

Here's the full text of the WSJ article:
The Official Demise of the Oil Bubble by David Gaffen:
On Sept. 11, 2007, the price of crude oil closed at $78.23 a barrel — the last time oil closed below $79 a barrel, until Friday. What seemed like a bewildering ascent in the price of crude at the time is now a relief to traders, who watched oil fall $8.98 a barrel to close at $77.61 on the New York Mercantile Exchange, the lowest closing price in more than a year.

Like a number of other commodities, oil’s move went from a steady ascent to a vertical bounce in the spring of 2008, topping out near $150 a barrel before speculative excess started to drain from the market. And those who believed that the oil price was justified by fundamentals — being, as it is, an actual product, rather than an Internet company’s vague promise of revenue — are smarting.

“This is a market that is basically returning to the price level of a year ago which it arguably should never have left,” says Tim Evans, energy analyst at Citigroup. “We pumped up a big bubble, expanded it to an impressive dimension, and now it is popped and we have bubble gum in our hair.”

Black, stinky, oozing bubble gum, perhaps, but the point is taken. The decline in worldwide demand is only the secular story in this rapid decline in oil. The unwinding of large-scale leverage positions in commodities has meant the end of the spring’s most popular trade, one based on going long inflation (that’s commodities) and short everything else.

The market is vulnerable to more pressure, analysts say, but it is unclear how far the market will fall. The steady climb in oil prices through mid-September could be construed as a demand-driven rally, but markets tend to overshoot. “We’re down to where I thought we could be. Can we go beyond that? Certainly,” says Stephen Schork, editor of the Schork Report, a newsletter on oil/gas in Villanova, Pa.

In coming months action from OPEC could play a role, as the leaders of those nations would be more easily able to justify production cuts now. “The fundamentals here are bearish on the order of a six- to nine-month time frame,” Mr. Evans says.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby americandream » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 15:47:44

Waht does your common sense tell you? I mean are you inclined to believe car salesmen?
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby killJOY » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 15:48:49

Um, no.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby dinopello » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 15:49:46

1. Are we fools? In other words, was all of that Peak Oil talk just a lot of blather, similar to the old Dot Com "New Economy" nonsense?
NO

2. Did people like us contribute to the Oil Bubble?
YES, a little.

3. Is it time for us to be honest and admit we were wrong?

NO, we are not wrong

Peak oil is about extraction rate potential, not price. For price, you have to include demand.

Oil extraction rate has some limit, which by some accounts was reached in 2005-7 timeframe. This is like the ceiling. We hit our head on the ceiling and prices spiked and it hurt really bad, so we ducked. Then we tried to straighten up and hit our head again OUCH! that time it really hurt and we fell to our knees. We will try to get back up slowly. Meanwhile, the ceiling is slowly lowering...
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby Leanan » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:01:56

No, it's not time to eat crow. It's time for everyone else to.

We peak oilers always knew that the "Grand Depression" scenario was likely.

Heck, it was peak oilers like Matt Simmons and Mike Ruppert who put the phrase "demand destruction" on the map. It wasn't a term ordinary economists used. It really is a peak oil thing. And now it's appearing in MSM headlines.
"The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby Economix » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:02:11

I'd have to disagree in the following ways:

A. If PeakOil is only about "extraction rates," then we ignore the consumption side of the equation. The reason prices went up, in my opinion, was a perception that demand would continue to soar unabated in the face of peak extraction rates. Obviously, demand can fall dramatically in response to economic conditions. Demand can also fall as substitutes enter the marketplace.

B. Substitutes for oil include not only other forms of energy, but other lifestyle and consumption choices. If I reduce my driving by 25% and consolidate my shopping trips, that behavioral choice is in effect a substitute for oil -- in terms of its impact on demand and price.

D. Prices reflect not only reality but our perceptions of reality. I'd say it's pretty clear that most forum contributors on PeakOil have had a crisis mindset that didn't always march in step with changing realities. "The sky is falling. The sky is falling." If we're honest and if we have enough guts, we should admit that this crisis mentality has been overplayed by a country mile.

E. If we expect politicians to admit when they're wrong, we should do the same. It's the responsible thing to do.

I'll admit I've been wrong about the imminent danger of Peak Oil. Anyone else care to do so?
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:09:42

dinopello wrote:1. Are we fools? In other words, was all of that Peak Oil talk just a lot of blather, similar to the old Dot Com "New Economy" nonsense? NO

2. Did people like us contribute to the Oil Bubble? YES, a little.

3. Is it time for us to be honest and admit we were wrong? NO, we are not wrong
Ditto, ditto, ditto.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby aflurry » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:12:55

Oh, come on. This story is about oil price. Peak oil is about oil production. Two different things.

Oil is falling because economic activity is falling. Economic activity is falling because of a massive deleveraging. Deleveraging is occuring because we have lost the ability to count on economic growth covering the aggregate interest on all that leverage, or the repayment of principle. Confidence in economic growth is gone because we have reached peak oil. So peak oil is causing price declines.

We eat no crow... though if things keep going the way they have been, and I can catch me a crow... thems good eatin'!
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby benzoil » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:17:24

Heinberg on recession and peak oil

Peak oil is not over. Declining production will matter less the next couple years as we deal with a global recession, but on the way out of that recession, we'll bump right back into production constraints.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby BIGtarget » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:24:52

To see oil prices fall and conclude that the peak wasn't real isn't good reasoning. The prices are falling because of the effect of expensive and scarce energy in the last few years. Since oil production hasn't kept up lock-step with our demand we find ourselves in the lovely situation we see now. The North American way of live i.e. suburbia and happy motoring is intimately tied to cheap and abundant energy. Our economy is further tied to our life-style. This consumption must continue to grow or the current model won't work. We will continue to see wild spikes and valleys in the price of oil, this is indicitive of the problem we face. Once the easily trimmed fat is removed then the real suffering begins. Mexico is well on the way in it's depletion curve and we will soon see more and more fuel shortages in the south U.S. Trust me, the party just getting warmed up. If you doubt give a listen to the weekly Financial Sense Newhour.

Financial Sense Newshour

You want scary stats you won't hear on CNN, go there.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:31:41

This idea that PO will be delayed is ridiculous.

In 2008, the world will consume about 86 mb/d.

In 2009 the world will consume about 86 mb/d regardless of economic conditions. That means oil producers will continue finding markets for every bbl they produce. Talk of cuts in production are just that: Talk.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby VMarcHart » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:35:21

eastbay wrote:In 2008, the world will consume about 86 mb/d. In 2009 the world will consume about 86 mb/d regardless of economic conditions. That means oil producers will continue finding markets for every bbl they produce.
Could you please explain that? Thanks.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby Economix » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:44:30

If Peak Oil is only about extraction, who gives a rip? In other words, if we're only measuring extraction rates, why lose sleep over it?

In my opinion, what we're really talking about on Peak Oil is this:

1. The dangerous socio-economic and political impact of Peak Oil.
2. The possible geopolitical violence that could result from Peak Oil.
3. The potential alternatives to oil to prevent #1 and #2 above.

It's not about oil, it's about energy -- and the big problem we have finding enough energy for the world's growing population. Just talking about extraction rates is nothing but a geology debate.

We're talking people here, folks. People = society. People = prices.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby SpringCreekFarm » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:45:19

What we are experiencing is the very first swoop ( demand destruction ) in the graph of peak oil that ushers in the undulating plateau stage. Oil is finite and will continue to deplete until either it is gone or we are gone. It's a mathematical certainty and time is the only variable factor.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:53:43

I wish I could get in a time machine and see what things look like 1 or 2 years hence. The speculators made the runup in oil prices look worse than the fundamentals, and they are now making the drop look like peak oil is beyond our lifetimes. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle, but as always people are quick to disregard a negative future if they can cling to positive data in the present. Not to say a depression is positive, but low oil prices are obviously a silver lining.

Now remember that there have been dire predictions about fuel oil for this winter. So for all we know this euphoria could be very short-lived. In the end price must intervene to balance supply and demand. If fuel oil inventories are short, then the price will spike or we will have shortages. So only time will tell where we really are.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby Cochise » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 17:04:37

The financial storm we are in is just obfuscating and postponing the economic effects of the GEOLOGICAL peak oil.

To quote Richard heinberg:
When the world finally begins to recover from its financial turmoil (and this could take a few years), and oil demand picks back up again, the economy will bump up against oil supply constraints and petroleum prices will skyrocket, undermining the economic recovery.

Even though oil demand will have been constrained in the intervening years, depletion of existing fields will have continued, so that new production projects (when the industry finally gets around to financing them) will have that much more of a decline rate to offset.

We are in the Hirsch Report’s worst-case scenario—only it’s worse.


http://postcarbon.org/say_goodbye_peak_oil
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby Ayoob » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 17:04:44

I have three questions for our forum crowd:

1. Are we fools? In other words, was all of that Peak Oil talk just a lot of blather, similar to the old Dot Com "New Economy" nonsense?

Yes and no. I think it depends on what kind of time horizon you're thinking about. I was looking at it from the point of view of my lifetime. There are going to be big dislocations due to the peak of oil production during my lifetime, I'm pretty sure of it. And, I think our current economic situation has something to do with peak oil.

For the last couple of years I've thought that the only way to avoid war would be for the US economy to collapse, releasing 25% of the world's oil to the rest of the world. That would crash the oil price for everybody but us. We wouldn't be able to buy the oil with dollars as they'd be unusable outside of the US, like the ruble was in the USSR.

It's the HUMAN REACTION to peak oil that's always been my concern.

2. Did people like us contribute to the Oil Bubble?

Certainly. And?

3. Is it time for us to be honest and admit we were wrong?

I'm not sure it's time yet. We're a ways off from figuring this out. Worldwide oil production hasn't declined yet, or if it has, it hasn't been by much. We're going to need a couple years of pumping flat out and achieving declining results before I'm ready to say that we're at or past the peak.

The game's not over yet.

At the same time, I have to admit that I'm not really on board with 95% of the posters on PO.com, and I think I'm completely on my own as far as the LATOC posters go. I don't want to be poor. I'm competing for my piece of the pie. I'm not a shut-in or mentally ill, or have a deep-seated grudge against the government or multinational corporations.

So... wrong about what?
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 17:39:06

I don't feel foolish about the perspective I have on peak oil.
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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby JPL » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 17:49:27

mos6507 wrote:I wish I could get in a time machine and see what things look like 1 or 2 years hence.


For Pete's sake, make sure it has a good reverse gear-lever. Better practice the sequence of moves before you set off. LOL!

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Nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
The needle returns to the start of the song
And we all sing along like before


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Re: Are we fools? Time to eat some crow?

Unread postby hardtootell » Fri 10 Oct 2008, 17:51:06

Yes! I am a fool!

Oil is now a renewable resource!

The coordinated population control plan is starting to show results!

Happy motoring!

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