[deMolay]

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_pape ... ?id=942418

[wisconsin_cur]

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=942418

For those of us not in Canada who may not be able to figure out what the story is about, the first paragraph::

No one is ever going to be arrested for shouting "equalization" in a crowded theatre. Discussing Canada's complex system of interprovincial wealth redistribution is more likely to cure insomnia than elicit panic in most Canadians. Still the 50-year-old plan, designed to transfer cash from so-called "have" provinces to "have-nots," is perhaps the biggest single drag on our economy. So at a time of slowing growth, it should be troubling to all Canadians when Ontario -- a province with nearly 40% of our national population and once the "economic engine of Confederation" -- slips into pauper status, even if only temporarily.

[DaleFromCalgary]

Equalization, for the benefit of non-Canadian readers, takes a portion of federal tax money and redistributes it to provincial governments using a have/have not formula that makes the Wall Street derivatives a model of clarity. The idea is to help poorer provinces maintain public services at a common national level.

The current formula is grudgingly accepted by Alberta. The worst form was the National Energy Policy (see Wikipedia for details) which stole $50 billion of oil money from Alberta in 1979 so Trudeau could buy votes in Ontario and Quebec.

[deMolay]

Let me call it what it really is. Marxism. "From each according to his means to each according to his needs." Basically what it does is ensure that everyone living in Alberta pays 5000 more per man woman and child than anyone else in eastern Canada. That is 20,000 extra per family of 4. The article is significant, because in the fairytale world of socialism, we basically have one Province Alberta with 3.5M citizens paying the bill for all the socialist programs in Canada. As much as socialist like to promise free lunches, free healthcare etc. In the real world it doesn't happen someone has to pay.

[Rod_Cloutier]

Alberta, BC and other weathy 'have' provinces are populated by people who were raised in the 'have not' provinces. Forty years ago Alberta had 1/10 its current population. 9/10ths of Alberta's current population has moved their from 'have not' provinces like the maritimes, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. You can't say that the 4 million people who live in BC and Alberta were raised there- simply not possible.

Personally half of my extended family has relocated from the 'have not' province of Manitoba in the last twenty years to either Alberta or BC.

I don't see how the populations of Alberta, Ontario, or BC think they shouldn't have to contribute to the social infrastructure that brought them up from elsewhere in the Country! I can't see that the hundred's of thousands who have been raised in economically depressed regions such as Newfoundland, Nova Scotia or New Brunswick and have relocated for the oil money- should not have to contribute back to the provinces they hail from.

This is not a real issue that deserves to even be debated.

[dorlomin]

Let me call it what it really is. Marxism. "From each according to his means to each according to his needs."

If your grasp of basic economics is so limited then perhaps you would be better for you if you did not post in an economics forum to display the depths of your ignorance. It is most certainly not Marxism. For a start it does not even begin to address 'owenrship of the means of production'.

This is the same problem that nearly every government in the world has to takle at some level, that the wealth is not equaly generated throughout the regions of a state.

[deMolay]

So using you two's logic. If my family lived in Ontario 100 years ago, and helped to build that Province. And they now live in Alberta and are helping to build this Province. They should still have to pay taxes in Ontario. In that case then Albertans who worked in former Provinces to build those Provinces need to be paid up for services rendered before they leave, whereever in the hell they came from. Both of you probably still believe in the tooth fairy as well. And it is a tenet of Marxism. It is one of the main planks of Marxism.

[deMolay]

And Dorlomin you are so brainwashed, that you are spouting Communism and don't even know it. What an economic nimcompoop. Let me guess. You were educated in one of Canada's socialist Puppy Mill Universities? Here is your quote. "This is the same problem that nearly every government in the world has to takle at some level, that the wealth is not equaly generated throughout the regions of a state."

[Maddog78]

No other Western nation redistributes so much wealth.

Repent, wow %90 from other provinces.
I'm sure it's a lot but %90?

I guess I should feel special.
Both my father and myself were born there.

[deMolay]

The level of Taxation in Canada is getting into the realm of a serious Human Rights Violation. Taxes have risen 1700% since 1961. http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... -1961.aspx
_________________

[dorlomin]

The level of Taxation in Canada is getting into the realm of a serious Human Rights Violation.

Hyperbole makes you look cool and edgy.

[deMolay]

According to Statscan over 850,000 working poor families in Canada today have to use foodbanks each month to stretch their paycheques and make ends meet. If you had bothered to read my post. You would have found that according to government sources, Taxes now consume more of the average working Canadian families income than they spend on Food, Clothing, Housing and Transportation combined. Every time you open your mouth, you show your true ignorance of reality. Especially about economics. And if you go over to the UN site and look around you would find, that is a Human Right Violation.

[Denny]

Back at the time of the Rowell-Sirois royal commission, which developed equalization, in 1937 if I recall from my high school history, Alberta was the most "have not" province in Canada.

Perhaps the fact that Alberta survived economically to see the day when the oil gushers of Leduc come in was in some part due to the cash flow from other provinces.

Most every government, including the U.S.A., has a principle of providing services for the "common good". So, even in the times gone by of what we think to be pure capitalism, the reality is that the wealthy paid more in taxes than they drew back in services. Schools, roads, police protection, etc. Equalization just extends the concept of funding services provided by the province to a national playing field.

I think equalization can be taken to an extreme, not all government services are all that essential, we even had the case about 20 years go, in which Newfoundland, could fund its tuition free provincial university while Ontario, which paid then paid the brunt of equalization had to raise tuitions at its own.

We all, as Canadians, want to see our brothers and sisters in the poorer regions having access to a basic level of services, such as agriculture, policing, health, education, roads, safety inspections, recreation and tourism development, right?

[deMolay]

The fact is Alberta never rec'd money from TROC except a small amount for a couple of years in the 80's. But remember at the same time. Ottawa stripped over 200B out of Alberta in the same time frame with the disasterous National Energy Program. In the 1930's Alberta was allowed to go into Bankruptcy, because we would not submit to Ottawa's demands. The only Province in Canadian history to be bankrupted. This was in the 1930's. By the way all the money that was invested to develop Alberta's oil came from the USA. Canada would not invest one dime. And as for the old saw that Ottawa is investing Billions in Oil sands right now. That is a bare faced lie. All they are allowing is an accelerated right off of machinery purchased in Ontario. At the same time Ottawa takes more out of Alberta in taxes on oil and gas than Alberta keeps for herself.

[deMolay]

This is for Dorlormin, the Voluntary Slave and Tax slug. http://www.sobran.com/articles/taxationages.shtml

[Maddog78]

I think I'm going to sell out and buy a cheap house in N.B. and kick back and live the easy life. Part time work and U.I.

This working for a living in the West is starting to suck.

[Snowrunner]

The fact is Alberta never rec'd money from TROC except a small amount for a couple of years in the 80's. But remember at the same time. Ottawa stripped over 200B out of Alberta in the same time frame with the disasterous National Energy Program. In the 1930's Alberta was allowed to go into Bankruptcy, because we would not submit to Ottawa's demands. The only Province in Canadian history to be bankrupted. This was in the 1930's. By the way all the money that was invested to develop Alberta's oil came from the USA. Canada would not invest one dime. And as for the old saw that Ottawa is investing Billions in Oil sands right now. That is a bare faced lie. All they are allowing is an accelerated right off of machinery purchased in Ontario. At the same time Ottawa takes more out of Alberta in taxes on oil and gas than Alberta keeps for herself.

It's funny that for some strange reason Albertans are always whining about being "robbed", yet Ontario ever since this came into play has never once received any of the hand outs, next year will be the first time that Ontario actually gets some of the money it has been paying in.

How about we revert all the "hand outs" and the money goes back to the place where it originated all the way back to 1958? Would solve Ontario's financial problems and they could easily afford to re-tool etc.

And hey, Alberta would get lots and lots of money back too, right?

the hyperbole that exists in some parts of Alberta is almost frightening.

[Snowrunner]

I think I'm going to sell out and buy a cheap house in N.B. and kick back and live the easy life. Part time work and U.I.

This working for a living in the West is starting to suck.

Oh come on admit it, you just want the free money out of Alberta

[cube]

Equalization, for the benefit of non-Canadian readers, takes a portion of federal tax money and redistributes it to provincial governments using a have/have not formula that makes the Wall Street derivatives a model of clarity. The idea is to help poorer provinces maintain public services at a common national level.

woah that's a weird system
that would never happen in the USA

[deMolay]

Dorlormin had the best explanation of Equalization I have ever seen. Let's say your family lived in New Jersey 50 years ago. Because they did, and they used services there 50 years ago, but you now live in California. It is only fair that you a descendant of New Jersey should continue to pay taxes in New Jersey, because your family lived there 50 years ago. Oh Yah and you had better keep up your taxes in California as well. That in a nutshell is equalization.