[hermit]

The last 11 months has been an intensive process of turning my blindness into sight.

As this sight has developed, it's become increasingly clear to me that the great nation of my birth has become increasingly stupid. Now our country has gone to shit. Fingers are pointing everywhere but at ourselves.

I point the finger squarely at my fellow Americans, for the following crimes:

- People who value emtpy phrases like "stay the course" over prudence.

- People who gave mindless lip service to "liberty", while supporting the rollback of our freedoms.

- People who were eager to believe justifications for war, instead of exercising caution.

- People who ignored warnings that war would bankrupt our nation.

- People who claim that war is undesirable, but sometimes necessary, and then embrace that necessity.

- People who elected the same dumbass president twice, despite him being clearly incompetent, and then went on to vote for a similar dumbass cut from the same cloth.

- People who are eager to buy into all sorts of lies based on their prejudices, without actually taking a moment to verify the truthfulness of their beliefs.

- People who sold out our own manufacturing industry by buying foreign made crap because it was a few dollars cheaper. Now we have nothing but an addiction to China's plastic.

- People who still cling to the same old tired lies, despite there being a wealth of information to the contrary.

Even as I read this forum, it's clear to me that a lot of people still havn't revisited their core beliefs, but are still blaming the same old bogeymen.

I really don't know who has made America this dumb. My suspicion is that we did it all by ourselves. I don't know why.


Even worse, I've been guilty of a lot of the points above.

[Dreamtwister]

And now that you know, what are you going to do about it?

[americandream]

Farming a civilisation for mindless consumerism requires certain objective outcomes, paramount amongst which is the lack of intellectual acumen.

Whom do we blame for this? I guess we might as well ask what the contours of the ideal bee colony are.

Substance, or the lack of it, is a function of form.

[Fishman]

Hermit
I strongly agree.
The ultimate empty phrase, like "CHANGE" without asking any details.
The blind belief that others who repeated say they plan to kill you, will not try, given any chance they can.
Keep up the great intellectual dreams.

[outcast]

People have always been this way. Nothing has changed.

[AlexdeLarge]

The ultimate empty phrase, like "CHANGE" without asking any details.

+1

[Sixstrings]

hermit wrote:

As this sight has developed, it's become increasingly clear to me that the great nation of my birth has become increasingly stupid. Now our country has gone to crap. Fingers are pointing everywhere but at ourselves.

I think the comman man has never been particularly interested in deep thoughts. Let's face it, throughout American history life has been more hard than easy for most folks. When you're trying to keep your family fed and survive the winter, there's just no room for esoteric thoughts.

What we used to have, and now lack, is a wealthy and powerful class who cares about more than just acquiring more wealth. A man like Thomas Jefferson was happy with the successful plantation, and it was admired for a gentleman to turn his interest at that point to intellectual matters.

Nowdays, the pursuit of wealth is endless. It consumes men, great and small. They have forgotten the greatest luxury of wealth -- having the free time and energy to devote to issues larger than money.

[Kristen]

America is narcissistic, unwilling to reflect on what she has become.

1. We're a country with an insatiable appetite for anything everyone else likes or has.

2. We are hypnotized by constant repetition of three worded catch phrases.

3. We are bombarded with constant symbols and suggestions. Look around the room and count the number of logos you can see.

4. Everything is instant and getting faster. Our minds are preoccupied with the latest gadgets and cell phones. Everytime you are out in the city notice the people always checking their phones. People can't just sit still and think.

5. We are afraid of suffering.

6. People are medicated when they "don't fit in" with society.

The list could go on forever. Our culture is so materialistic and shallow, its disgusting to those with an intelligent mind.

[wisconsin_cur]

We universalize our own experience and apply it to the whole of one culture or region.

Like,

America is narcissistic, unwilling to reflect on what she has become.

1. We're a country with an insatiable appetite for anything everyone else likes or has.

2. We are hypnotized by constant repetition of three worded catch phrases.

3. We are bombarded with constant symbols and suggestions. Look around the room and count the number of logos you can see.

4. Everything is instant and getting faster. Our minds are preoccupied with the latest gadgets and cell phones. Everytime you are out in the city notice the people always checking their phones. People can't just sit still and think.

5. We are afraid of suffering.

6. People are medicated when they "don't fit in" with society.

The list could go on forever. Our culture is so materialistic and shallow, its disgusting to those with an intelligent mind.

[3aidlillahi]

We universalize our own experience and apply it to the whole of one culture or region.

Like,

America is narcissistic, unwilling to reflect on what she has become.

1. We're a country with an insatiable appetite for anything everyone else likes or has.

2. We are hypnotized by constant repetition of three worded catch phrases.

3. We are bombarded with constant symbols and suggestions. Look around the room and count the number of logos you can see.

4. Everything is instant and getting faster. Our minds are preoccupied with the latest gadgets and cell phones. Everytime you are out in the city notice the people always checking their phones. People can't just sit still and think.

5. We are afraid of suffering.

6. People are medicated when they "don't fit in" with society.

The list could go on forever. Our culture is so materialistic and shallow, its disgusting to those with an intelligent mind.

I think most of us here have spent countless hours with countless numbers of people from across the country and have been to many parts of the country to know that what Kristen says is the universal truth in America. It's certainly not a case of applying universally what's held locally (damn, I forgot what this type of argument is...).

There are certainly exceptions but don't they just prove the rule?

[wisconsin_cur]

I would say that we often see what we want to see. Take this for example.

I have my consumerist impulses. Yes I read a lot from the library but I also buy many books, sometimes compulsively. Am I the rule or the exception to it?

I have some family members that are, to be kind, foolish hillbillies with six televisions and are, all the bad things we want to say is universally true about americans... they are also loving and kind. They are capable of saying very insightful things and great sacrifice for no gratitude or reward. The can be quite industrious and excellent problem solvers. Are they the exceptions or the rule? They are both.

I spent a summer in Indonesia (Java), living in people's homes when I was in college. I was universally adored as an American... everyone's biggest disappointment with me was that I could not play the guitar like Bon Jovi. They could also say the most racist things about other ethnic groups. What should we say is universally true about Indoesians? What is the exception that proves the rule? They are both. What one emphasizes depends upon the value judgments you want to make (usually for sub-conscious emotional reasons) more than an objective analysis of the Javanese people.

With the possible exception of #6 (which I would dispute) are these not true of all peoples? When Iran was in revolution were the people not bombarded with and susceptiable to symbols and suggestions? Where do the people live who can sit down and think... and do we say this just because our own opinions are more popular there or because there is some real measurable indicator of increased reflective behavior. Just because the symbols/suggestions of other cultures are different than my own does not mean that they are not used in other cultures. It only means that I may not recognize them.

I love it how so many of my immigrant friends cannot see the faults of America (of which there are plenty) and (some of) the natural born seem so aware and preoccupied with them ... while being equally fascinated with the virtue of some other (foreign) culture. This tells me that what is at work is not objective analysis but romance.

There is a tendency to romanticized "the other" just as there is a tendency to fear it. What we fear and romanticized is the "chrome and fins" when if fact we all come with stock engines and transmissions. Ford and Chevy learned along time ago that you do not have to change the vehicle every few years, just the outside styling. In the same way most of what passes as cultural analysis, whether it lauds one culture or casts another as evil is usually no more substantive than a bunch of hillbillies arguing whether Chevy or Ford makes better trucks.

[wisconsin_cur]

I say usually because there is room to have a real adult conversation about the relative virtues of different cultures, even as one can have an adult conversation about the relative virtues of Toyota over say Buick. But you are darned lucky to come across an adult conversation on the matter and one should be very thankful for every second of that adult conversation because it may drift into posturing at any given moment.

[3aidlillahi]

With the possible exception of #6 (which I would dispute) are these not true of all peoples? When Iran was in revolution were the people not bombarded with and susceptiable to symbols and suggestions?

I'd love for you to point out where anybody said that the stupidification of a nation applies only to the US. We discuss the stupidification of the US because that's where the vast majority of PO'ers live and nearly everyone across the world reaps the consequences of said event.

Nobody's denying that others can't be just as materialistic or dumb as we are. But saying that others are does not change the fact that the US is. And you've yet to prove that.

Ford and Chevy learned along time ago that you do not have to change the vehicle every few years, just the outside styling. In the same way most of what passes as cultural analysis, whether it lauds one culture or casts another as evil is usually no more substantive than a bunch of hillbillies arguing whether Chevy or Ford makes better trucks.

I say usually because there is room to have a real adult conversation about the relative virtues of different cultures, even as one can have an adult conversation about the relative virtues of Toyota over say Buick. But you are darned lucky to come across an adult conversation on the matter and one should be very thankful for every second of that adult conversation because it may drift into posturing at any given moment

With comments like these, it certainly seems like you are agreeing with Kristen's assertion that the US has dumbed down based off of symbols and appearances; that substance means almost nothing here.

There is a tendency to romanticized "the other" just as there is a tendency to fear it.

The grass is greener on the other side.

However, nobody is talking about the other side until you brought it up. We were only talking about this side of the fence. You seem to be putting words into others' mouths in order to make a point. Nobody is romanticizing another's yard; we're simply commenting on the dogshit in our yard.

[Aaron]

I think most of us here have spent countless hours with countless numbers of people from across the country and have been to many parts of the country to know that what Kristen says is the universal truth in America. It's certainly not a case of applying universally what's held locally (damn, I forgot what this type of argument is...).

Socrates was a man
Socrates was mortal
therefore all men are mortal

Inductive Reasoning

[wisconsin_cur]

1) the title assumes that there is a progression. We have become stupid therefore we must not have been stupid at one time.

2)You do not call people stupid if they are average. If you are saying x is stupid than it assumes that this is a judgment against someone else. If I say "xyz brand oatmeal tastes like crap" I am not saying "It tastes like oatmeal" I am saying that compared to other brands of oatmeal, this brand is peculiarly bad.

3) Saying these things are "universally true" and the exceptions just prove the rule, is about as intelligent as white people who castigate blacks, "except for my friend Jim, he's ok" or "Mexicans are lazy except for Jose at the factory, he works hard" or any other bit of racist/tribal/cultural simplifications that serve only to create false divisions.

This does not mean that there are not real differences that we could talk about, only that they are not simple nor are they of the kind listed above.

[TommyJefferson]

it's become increasingly clear to me that the great nation of my birth has become increasingly stupid. Now our country has gone to crap.

I disagree. It's clear to me that America and the rest world have become increasingly free and wealthy over the last 100 years due to cheap oil.

Look at the whole picture. Compare the world to 100 years ago. For the majority of people on this planet is there MORE:
- slavery
- suffrage for women
- lifespan
- freedom from religion
- rape
- tooth decay
- probability of being killed by a government
- infant mortality
- physical abuse of children
- literacy
- disease
- travel
- communication
- back-breaking physical labor

...or LESS.
The human condition for the majority has improved. The question is, will it continue to improve, or will it revert.

That question boils down to respect for human rights. The most basic human right is the right of property, of self-ownership. All the improvments above have resulted from greater respect for the right of people to be free from violence to their most valued personal possession, themselves.

Work to help people understand that initiating violence is wrong, and that property rights are sacred and beneficial.

[3aidlillahi]

2)You do not call people stupid if they are average. If you are saying x is stupid than it assumes that this is a judgment against someone else. If I say "xyz brand oatmeal tastes like crap" I am not saying "It tastes like oatmeal" I am saying that compared to other brands of oatmeal, this brand is peculiarly bad.

Actually, I would call something stupid or intelligent without regard to something else.

Dictionary.com

Stupid - adjective, -er, -est, noun
–adjective
1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue

Only one of the five definitions ever needs a reference point. Just like there can be red without non-red colors (based off of wavelength) or a square without non-squares (based of length and number of sides), so can there be stupid without intelligent. If everyone is "2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue.",
then there aren't some people in that group that wouldn't be identified as stupid, they'd all be stupid based off of the definition.

Let's use your analogy: food. If you've never had oatmeal, and then you eat oatmeal for the first time, is it not possible to say that it tastes bad? Of course, you may be referencing it to other foods.

Let's say that you are a created being in your current form and age. You've never had any memory nor experience of eating oatmeal. You eat oatmeal and it's your first meal ever. Is it the case that this bowl of oatmeal can only be described as bland or neutral (since you have nothing to compare it to and thus can't be good or bad)? Of course not. The "goodness" or "badness" of the oatmeal will be based off of you sensation of the oatmeal's compounds striking your nerves on your tongue. If the oatmeal is extremely salty, then it doesn't matter that you've never had anything to compare it to; you'll still think that it's crap. If it's sweet, then you'll enjoy it.

Good and bad don't need a reference point. Just like you don't need Hitler to realize that helping someone out is good, you don't need an Einstein to realize that Joe 6-Pack is not that bright.

3) Saying these things are "universally true" and the exceptions just prove the rule, is about as intelligent as white people who castigate blacks, "except for my friend Jim, he's ok" or "Mexicans are lazy except for Jose at the factory, he works hard" or any other bit of racist/tribal/cultural simplifications that serve only to create false divisions.

So you're comparing me to racists? Thanks

As for the "exceptions prove the rule", I said that kind of tongue-in-cheek. Should've put a smiley. Of course everything is more complex than what can be laid out on a forum. But that doesn't change the fact that for the vast majority of Americans and in every corner of the US, this does apply: even to us in one shape or another.

Inductive Reasoning

The term I was thinking of was fallacy of composition.

nor are they of the kind listed above

So you are going to say that the US is not dominated by symbolism? That people don't have orgasms over the words "Change" "Hope" and "Country First"? That we aren't a society dominated by nearly everyone wearing clothes with their designers' logos on them?

Or that we live in a "now" society where if we don't get what we want, we'll kill for it? If you haven't noticed, that happens just about every Christmas season. People can't wait for the new gizmo, so they trample a person to death for it. Yeah, that doesn't happen in this country.

You've yet to disprove anything that Kristen nor Hermit has said, only to say that others do it as well. But that doesn't change the fact that we do also.

[3aidlillahi]

I disagree. It's clear to me that America and the rest world have become increasingly free and wealthy over the last 100 years due to cheap oil.

It depends on your reference point. If you look back the past hundred years, sure, we're better off. But you could've done that during the World Depression One and concluded that the world wasn't in too bad a situation since our economy was still better than 100 years prior.

But if you look back to only the past 40-50 years or less, then it's quite clear that we've been going downhill. We have more people entering slavery (real and debt-based). More people starving to death. More religious tyranny (rise of the Religious Right, "Islamic" regimes in the ME replacing secular ones, etc.) Less property rights (overuse of eminent domain). Failure of our public schools - we went from putting a man on the moon in 10 years to "maybe we can beat Madagascar in math and science scores this year".

Long term, we've done well. But the future outlook is very bleak based on our recent performance.

[mgibbons19]

We universalize our own experience andIt's certainly not a case of applying universally what's held locally (damn, I forgot what this type of argument is...).

Ecological fallacy.

Edit to add: taking something that is true of the individual and applying it at the group level.

[wisconsin_cur]

Since I do not have time to engage further for a couple of days I will leave the field to you only adding that if I talked about the increased pathological violence orientation of arab culture (a culture that I would contend is more unified than this mosiac called america)... or if I just said "Muslims are stupid" I would be guilty of gross over-simplification.

And if I said things like:
1. They're a people with an insatiable preoccupation with sex.

2. They are hypnotized by constant repetition of three worded catch phrases that contain the word "Allah."

3. They are bombarded with constant symbols and suggestions. Look around the room and count the number of Koran quotes you can see.

4. Everything is anger and angrier. Their minds are preoccupied with every grievence (real and imagined) of the last 1000 years. Everytime you turn on the TV they are chanting death to someone. They can't just sit still and think.

5. They are afraid of change.

6. People are executed when they "don't fit in" with society.

oh, and,

7. The exceptions just prove the rule.

I think it would be greeted with a little more critical thought than the "Americans are stupid" catch-phrase.

Stereotypes are one form of ecological fallacy

Link But some stereotypes are more popular than others and Lord forgive us if we are not willing to surrender our own while demanding that others give up their's.