[neocone]

Pork and more pork

Strange that as the car traffic majorly declines, for example here in LA, congestion still increases because of useless and idiotic road construction projects.

I expect road and basic infrastructure to be destroyed not by the hand of entropy and civilization decline; but rather by futile attempts at "infrastructure rebuilding" which will mean destroy what was there before and then stop as funds run dry, leaving a rebarb farm or a fractured road.

Just as a hunted deer which is shot runs the fastest ever in his life thanks to adrenaline, even with a destroyed heart, before collapsing, it seems to me civilization and especially the US will engage in the MOST MASSIVE EVER economic activity before the death throes set in.

[blukatzen]

That was a good article, and it needed to be said. It basically proposes that gov't re-evaluate the money it's really spending on, and can they get better VALUE out of rethinking HOW that money will and should be spent.

I know here in Chicago, we are having a lot of potholes .(just coming in on "pothole season" right now with the salt trucks/snow removal teams that leave them in the streets, roads and highways).

There's also a lot of sewer cave-ins, due to expanded water use as high rises are replacing 2 or 3 level apts. here in the City. More water/sanitation useage in areas demand more infrastructure. We need to replace our 80 to 90 year water systems, heck, a few years back, the City replaced ours as there were still WOODEN SEWERS still around. (rotting away is more like it.)

The electrical grid is something we have to work on as well, in tandem with the water projects.
Many of our streetlights in certain neighborhoods are out over the summer due to high consumer demand due to power useage of air conditioners. If *that alone* can trip the wires, the Heavens help us!

We need bridge repairs as well. Chicago has more bridges than Amsterdam, and we need some of them repaired. This also goes for overpasses on the highway system, which are crumbling in the cold weather. Slowly this is happening, but it needs to happen nonetheless.

Overall, a good article, but towns need to take stock of the bigger picture, to make BETTER CHOICES for themselves in the future. It may make better sense to scrap some plans and institute others.

Pork for porks sake..it's NOT on the Menu anymore.

Blu

[vtsnowedin]

Blu,
Just think how much more work you could get done in Chicago if all the contractors didn't have to pony up a half mil to some politician to get his bids opened? And how much longer the work would stand up if they actually had to do quality work to get paid for it. In the street I mean not at the Aldermans house.

[emersonbiggins]

FTFA:

For example, much federal road funding is still appropriated based on miles driven, not population, essentially encouraging states to build projects that make people drive more.

I did not know this. It bears repeating here - yet another federal inducement to the sprawl model of development. More importantly, it discourages the reconstruction of existing, ailing infrastructure, in lieu of expansion (growth for the sake of growth).

[vtsnowedin]

FTFA:

For example, much federal road funding is still appropriated based on miles driven, not population, essentially encouraging states to build projects that make people drive more.

I did not know this. It bears repeating here - yet another federal inducement to the sprawl model of development. More importantly, it discourages the reconstruction of existing, ailing infrastructure, in lieu of expansion (growth for the sake of growth).

I worked in the highway construction bureaucracy for years. They have been using ADT. (average daily traffic.) for years to decide where to spend the money looking at both the traffic today on the old road and the projected traffic twenty years out from project completion. Now they are looking at ESALs (equivalent single axle loads.) to design road bases and pavements that will last under the traffic they bear realizing that one overloaded truck does the same amount of wear and tear on a road as four properly loaded trucks (9000 lbs/axle.) or fourty or so passenger cars. You can criticize there methods if you like but most of their errors have been to under build not over build roads. They did not direct people to live in the suburbs they responded to peoples desire to live outside the city and commute in to work. When the taxpayers want somthing differnt they will jump to give it to them. it does take a majority of opinion to change the course though.

[emersonbiggins]

They did not direct people to live in the suburbs they responded to peoples desire to live outside the city and commute in to work.

Sorry, I disagree. Strongly. Incentives would not be needed if the suburban mode was inherently superior to other arrangements of living.

The tail most definitely wags this dog.

[emersonbiggins]

VTsnowed - I really don't feel like going over this topic again., as we've frankly discussed this ad nauseum.

But, it's curious that you mentioned highway design & construction techniques being [somewhat] inferior in design here in the US (based on the premise of 'making it up on volume,' I'm sure). I read an article a few months back that compared the German Autobahn with the Interstate Highway System, and I was very surprised at how value engineered our system is versus the Germans'. They have full, evacuated drainage systems, and their concrete slabs are twice as thick as ours (I think?...), which I guess could increase their useful life by multiples of our own (100 years, vs. 30?) I wish I remembered the name of the magazine, but it was Automobile or Motor Trend (or something like that.)

Interesting stuff, I thought. As someone who worked in the industry, have you noticed techniques today differing from those used in the past, perhaps in response to higher GVWRs allowed, and what impacts these might have on older designs?

[vtsnowedin]

Did you ever hear the song "Only twenty five minutes from broadway" They were singing about living in the suburbs of Long Island and commuting on the train in the twentys, It was what the urban dweller wanted to move his family up to even before cars. With the advent of reliable cars the monopoly of the railroads was broken and the burbs expanded in all directions. The first time the economy was good after cars had self starters so the wife could drive you to the station etc. the boom was on as in Levet town. The interstate system is the only group of roads in america that ever got ahead of the public demand and then only just barely. People like to think the big bad government foisted a turkey on the public that wasn't wanted or needed but the want part of the equation was certainly there.

[neocone]

Now one thing I don't understand is why they only hire 10 guys to do the job in 1 year vs. 100 guys and do it in 1 month???
Oh wait? would it have something to do with like... job security?

Been like 7 months an entire intersection close to where I live has been 1 lane vs. 2 on each side, and a mess of always idle machinery and like 1 worker that you really have to look for to spot.

Maybe if brave gangs start to steal equipment will they think of speeding up things and at least manning the sector?

Oh wait... it is gangs and the mafia that probably moved up and found out they can get paid for basically doing nothing if they pose as contractors!

[cube]

... I worked in the highway construction bureaucracy for years. They have been using ADT. (average daily traffic.) for years to decide where to spend the money looking at both the traffic today on the old road and the projected traffic twenty years out from project completion. Now they are looking at ESALs (equivalent single axle loads.) to design road bases and pavements that will last under the traffic they bear realizing that one overloaded truck does the same amount of wear and tear on a road as four properly loaded trucks (9000 lbs/axle.) or fourty or so passenger cars. You can criticize there methods if you like but most of their errors have been to under build not over build roads. They did not direct people to live in the suburbs they responded to peoples desire to live outside the city and commute in to work. When the taxpayers want somthing differnt they will jump to give it to them. it does take a majority of opinion to change the course though.

It's my observation there are two types of people in this world:
1) people who believe the world is the way it is because that's what society has chosen or at least allowed to happen
2) people who believe the world is controlled by the richest 2% who use their power to force their will upon others.

The nice thing about option 2) is you NEVER have to blame yourself or society for the world's problems because you know it's ALL the fault of the power elites.
However the downside to such thinking is that if you truly believe that someone else controls your future well then I guess the story ends there.
The downside to option 1) is that ultimately you have no one to blame but yourself or society for why the planet is so FCUKED up.
The upside is that no matter how naive or unlikely it may be ---> there is a potential for change.

Unfortunately most people choose option 2). It's the easier way.

[emersonbiggins]

The interstate system is the only group of roads in america that ever got ahead of the public demand and then only just barely.

'Just barely' - in this case, meaning 20 years before the first shovel was turned.



This diagram is from 1939. It, within some margin of error, pretty accurately displays where our current system is built, and the cities it connects.

Even I'll admit, it is a beautiful example of central planning, at its finest.

By that, I mean that I can't imagine your typical dirt farmer during GD1 imagining or foreseeing the need to travel hundreds of miles across the country in an automobile, if he even owned one. How fortunate for him to have had groups of mayors, automobile lobbies and governors, only acting altruistically (of course), in perfecting this plan (which he had no use for at the time).

[vtsnowedin]

VTsnowed - I really don't feel like going over this topic again., as we've frankly discussed this ad nauseum.OK
But, it's curious that you mentioned highway design & construction techniques being [somewhat] inferior in design here in the US (based on the premise of 'making it up on volume,' I'm sure). I read an article a few months back that compared the German Autobahn with the Interstate Highway System, and I was very surprised at how value engineered our system is versus the Germans'. They have full, evacuated drainage systems, and their concrete slabs are twice as thick as ours (I think?...), which I guess could increase their useful life by multiples of our own (100 years, vs. 30?) I wish I remembered the name of the magazine, but it was Automobile or Motor Trend (or something like that.)
Interesting stuff, I thought. As someone who worked in the industry, have you noticed techniques today differing from those used in the past, perhaps in response to higher GVWRs allowed, and what impacts these might have on older designs?

We have gone to Europe and looked at their techniques and policys and adapted some that applied to our conditions. Mostly in quality control while processing materials. One problem in carrying theirs into ours is the diversity of climate we have here. A road that will stand up in Arizona will not do well in New Hampshire or vis versa. We look at the total thickness of the road base and pavement not just the thickness of the slab. In New England a common interstate design is four feet of sand gravel and or crushed rock with eight inches of asphalt pavement over it. The drainage systems are extensive and strives to keep both rainfall and ground water out of the base courses, though I must say that I have never come across the term' evacuated drainage system'. We do use catch basin sumps at many inlets to catch winter sand and keep it out of the waterways and perhaps they have devised a way to have these self drain between storms to increase their capacity.
The base and drainage is good for up to a hundred years but you still have to repave it every twenty years or so as tires and plow blades wear away the top inch to the point that the water collects in the ruts and causes hydroplaning accidents. Bridges on the other hand are hard to build to a fifty year standard with the truck loads of today, road salt and the limitations of modern enviromentaly safer paints. Lucky to get twenty years between overhauls in the north.

[emersonbiggins]

VTsnowed - I really don't feel like going over this topic again., as we've frankly discussed this ad nauseum.OK
But, it's curious that you mentioned highway design & construction techniques being [somewhat] inferior in design here in the US (based on the premise of 'making it up on volume,' I'm sure). I read an article a few months back that compared the German Autobahn with the Interstate Highway System, and I was very surprised at how value engineered our system is versus the Germans'. They have full, evacuated drainage systems, and their concrete slabs are twice as thick as ours (I think?...), which I guess could increase their useful life by multiples of our own (100 years, vs. 30?) I wish I remembered the name of the magazine, but it was Automobile or Motor Trend (or something like that.)
Interesting stuff, I thought. As someone who worked in the industry, have you noticed techniques today differing from those used in the past, perhaps in response to higher GVWRs allowed, and what impacts these might have on older designs?

We have gone to Europe and looked at their techniques and policys and adapted some that applied to our conditions. Mostly in quality control while processing materials. One problem in carrying theirs into ours is the diversity of climate we have here. A road that will stand up in Arizona will not do well in New Hampshire or vis versa. We look at the total thickness of the road base and pavement not just the thickness of the slab. In New England a common interstate design is four feet of sand gravel and or crushed rock with eight inches of asphalt pavement over it. The drainage systems are extensive and strives to keep both rainfall and ground water out of the base courses, though I must say that I have never come across the term' evacuated drainage system'. We do use catch basin sumps at many inlets to catch winter sand and keep it out of the waterways and perhaps they have devised a way to have these self drain between storms to increase their capacity.
The base and drainage is good for up to a hundred years but you still have to repave it every twenty years or so as tires and plow blades wear away the top inch to the point that the water collects in the ruts and causes hydroplaning accidents. Bridges on the other hand are hard to build to a fifty year standard with the truck loads of today, road salt and the limitations of modern enviromentaly safer paints. Lucky to get twenty years between overhauls in the north.

By 'evacuated drainage' (I've probably screwed the term up), it looks as if the Autobahn drains itself without the aid of bar ditches, rather draining the runoff off of the sloped cross-section of the highway into an integral grille and piping system that lets water safely discharge far away from the banked slopes of the roadway. The result is (I assume) less collection of moisture on the roadways during particularly stormy weather, than would occur on a normal highway.

[vtsnowedin]

The interstate system is the only group of roads in america that ever got ahead of the public demand and then only just barely.

'Just barely' - in this case, meaning 20 years before the first shovel was turned.



This diagram is from 1939. It, within some margin of error, pretty accurately displays where our current system is built, and the cities it connects.

Even I'll admit, it is a beautiful example of central planning, at its finest.

By that, I mean that I can't imagine your typical dirt farmer during GD1 imagining or foreseeing the need to travel hundreds of miles across the country in an automobile, if he even owned one. How fortunate for him to have had groups of mayors, automobile lobbies and governors, only acting altruistically (of course), in perfecting this plan (which he had no use for at the time).

By getting ahead I meant completeing the road before there were drivers that wanted to use it. That 1939 map is pretty much an overlay of the major rail lines then in place. A small error in VT but they fixed that. When they opened I-89 at the VT NH border in 62 they had 500 cars a day each direction. Last time I looked it was about 32000 each way. We tried those slotted side drains at driveways. They don't last long with frost and plows. All our high fills have guardrail on them with a asphalt curb tucked under the rail to keep the water from washing out the slope. a basin and slope pipe collect the water every 300 feet or so and let it gently down to the toe of the slope. this works pretty well for twenty years or so but they get filled up with winter sand and the galvanized culvert pipe used in the 60s rusts out and has to be replaced. Always looking for a better more durable way to do it.

[emersonbiggins]

We tried those slotted side drains at driveways. They don't last long with frost and plows. All our high fills have guardrail on them with a asphalt curb tucked under the rail to keep the water from washing out the slope. a basin and slope pipe collect the water every 300 feet or so and let it gently down to the toe of the slope. this works pretty well for twenty years or so but they get filled up with winter sand and the galvanized culvert pipe used in the 60s rusts out and has to be replaced. Always looking for a better more durable way to do it.

Dang it, I have got to find that that I was talking about article somewhere. There was a beautiful cross-section comparo between the autobahn and a typical interstate highway that would describe it better than I ever could. I think the slot drains in Germany were set up to handle snow as well, but I can't be sure.

I'll look for it.

[vaseline2008]

FTFA:

For example, much federal road funding is still appropriated based on miles driven, not population, essentially encouraging states to build projects that make people drive more.

I did not know this. It bears repeating here - yet another federal inducement to the sprawl model of development. More importantly, it discourages the reconstruction of existing, ailing infrastructure, in lieu of expansion (growth for the sake of growth).

Doesn't surprise me, governments usually budget on how much is "needed". School's get the same amount funded the previous year if they used up all the money. If they don't use it all up, they can end up getting less the following. So it's in the school's "best" interest to use up all the funds, doesn't matter how, so that they will get "funded" the next term.