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Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

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Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby billg » Mon 15 Dec 2008, 20:02:56

Mall Owners Seek Debt Extensions
General Growth and Centro Continue Talks With Lenders Under Deadline December 15, 2008

Both Chicago-based General Growth and Centro have been struggling to refinance debt for months because of the credit crisis. Their problems have intensified as the economy has worsened, triggering bankruptcies and store closings by retailers.
By KRIS HUDSON

The fates of two of the largest retail property owners in the U.S. hung in the balance Monday as General Growth Properties Inc. and Centro Properties Group each negotiated with lenders for extensions of payment deadlines on big debts.

General Growth once again found its efforts to win an extension on a $900 million bank loan stymied by Citigroup Inc., according to people familiar with the matter. Though the six other lenders in the loan had agreed to a long-term extension, all must agree for the pact to be completed.

Two weeks prior, Citigroup scuttled General Growth's bid for a long-term extension of the debt by demanding changes to terms on an unrelated $2.6 billion credit line and term loan that General Growth landed in 2006, these people say. Citigroup supplied more than $100 million of that 2006 loan. The sides ultimately agreed on a two-week extension that expired Friday.

In talks over the weekend, Citigroup made additional demands each time General Growth conceded to its earlier demands, these people say. A representative of General Growth declined to comment Sunday on the talks, as did a Citigroup representative. Other lenders in the loan are Deutsche Bank AG, Eurohypo AG, Wachovia Corp., Bank of America Corp., Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and an unidentified smaller lender.

In Australia Monday, Melbourne-based Centro negotiated with roughly two dozen lenders to extend its payment deadline on $6 billion in debt due at the end of the day. Centro, which owns 650 shopping centers in the U.S. and roughly 130 in Australia and New Zealand, has offered to allow at least $1 billion of the debt to eventually convert into equity. In return, Centro has sought an extension of at least a year and lower interest rates.

General Growth, which owns and manages more than 200 U.S. malls, amassed a $27 billion debt load in an acquisition spree in recent years. The $900 million loan General Growth is trying to extend is backed by two luxury malls on the Las Vegas Strip: Fashion Show mall and the Shoppes at the Palazzo.

If the lenders on that loan declare General Growth in default, it would trigger cross defaults of other General Growth debts and force the company to seek bankruptcy-court protection. Though the two-week extension of the loan expired Friday, the lenders didn't declare General Growth in default as negotiations continued through the weekend and Monday.

Centro racked up roughly $16 billion in debt in recent years, mostly to finance acquisitions. Its problems refinancing and paying its debts erupted in December 2007, and it has obtained numerous extensions from its lenders since.


Wall Street Journal
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 15 Dec 2008, 20:34:53

Just wait until the stores start closing. If the owners of the malls are having trouble paying the banks now, just wait a few more months.
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby DJSNOLA » Mon 15 Dec 2008, 22:48:43

Seriously! Whats the point in extending the load deadline when the writing is clearly on the wall! I wonder if everyone is hoping for some sort of miracle to save them, because you are definitely right that the store closings have yet to really hit the landlords.
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby cipi604 » Tue 16 Dec 2008, 00:17:15

This story is very familiar to a gambling addict. They lose everything and go into debt because they can't quit the game.
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby Ferretlover » Tue 16 Dec 2008, 00:28:13

I would have to agree. We have not yet gotten into the serious shore-closing numbers.
BTW: Nice formatting/presentation of your post, billg!

Typo: fixed typo...sigh...
Last edited by Ferretlover on Thu 01 Jan 2009, 11:34:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby bratticus » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 08:53:52

billg wrote:
WSJ wrote:Mall Owners Seek Debt Extensions
General Growth and Centro Continue Talks With Lenders Under Deadline December 15, 2008

Both Chicago-based General Growth and Centro have been struggling to refinance debt for months because of the credit crisis. Their problems have intensified as the economy has worsened, triggering bankruptcies and store closings by retailers.
By KRIS HUDSON

The fates of two of the largest retail property owners in the U.S. hung in the balance Monday as General Growth Properties Inc...


Pershing Square betting on General Growth bankruptcy

By Dan Wilchins and Ilaina Jonas
Reuters UK
Tue Dec 30, 2008

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Hedge fund Pershing Square Capital Management, one of General Growth Properties Inc's GGP.N biggest shareholders, is betting the No. 2 U.S. mall owner will file for bankruptcy -- and equity investors will end up big winners, a person familiar with the firm's thinking said.

...skip...

Bankruptcy usually leaves stock investors with plenty of nothing, but General Growth is an unusual case. It has almost $30 billion of assets on its books, and just about $27 billion of debt.

...snip...


I bet the assets are (mostly) shopping malls. :roll:
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 10:33:26

Bankruptcy usually leaves stock investors with plenty of nothing, but General Growth is an unusual case. It has almost $30 billion of assets on its books, and just about $27 billion of debt.


On the books is key. It's certainly possible if not highly likely that they were inflating the value of their assets thus making them better stock buys or increasing their ability to get a loan.

Plus you have to wonder how much of their property has lost value in just six months.
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby lawnchair » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 22:15:30

3aidlillahi wrote:
Bankruptcy usually leaves stock investors with plenty of nothing, but General Growth is an unusual case. It has almost $30 billion of assets on its books, and just about $27 billion of debt.
On the books is key. It's certainly possible if not highly likely that they were inflating the value of their assets thus making them better stock buys or increasing their ability to get a loan. Plus you have to wonder how much of their property has lost value in just six months.

Since most of their assets are in real estate, they have an alternative to valuing them to-the-market (in which case, their value would be rapidly approaching nil). Rather, they can take the county tax assessor's word for it. And the county assessor both doesn't have a 'comparable sale' nearby for such a property in the last few years (when did the last mall sell?), and knows that sharply cutting the valuation evicerates the property tax base (even if the owners aren't going to be able to pay their taxes soon enough).
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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 00:14:46

Extending more credit to Mall Owners is just like extending more credit to States that can't pay Unemployment. Sure you could print money to bail them out, but all you do is render the money you print more and more worhtless each time you do this.

New Shoppers aren't going to magically appear next year. New Workers are not going to magically appear to pay taxes. The foundation upon which the whole house of cards of capitalism is built, GROWTH, is not happening. The level of debt owed to those who worked in the system is more than the system can bear, in retirement funds and in money Hedge Fund managers expect to make for their Pigmen clients. There is no place to invest said money other than to bet on the failure of some business.

TPTB don't want to let go of this model though, and so they are holding people to contracts they cannot meet, there just is no way these Mall Owners will be able to pay their bills next year. Their clients, the shoppers can't pay THEIR bills. Cascade Failure of course.

There is no deep pocket out there to loan money to get this machine going again. The people running the show are Zombies, they are Dead but they just don't know it yet. Fiat money is Money as Debt, and the balance sheets cannot be reconciled because there is no growth. Nobody is loaning money to anyone, and people who already owe money can't pay it back. So those who loaned the money would like to repo the "assets", but the assets of Malls and of McMansions are close to worthless. They can't be resold. The House of Cards is done. Its finished. The main question is when the Zombies in charge realize this, and how long it takes for J6P to be hungry enough to go out and riot. All the machinations going on in Congress are a waste of time and effort, this cannot be salvaged, no way, no how. Its OVER.

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Re: Mall owners not making good on debt repayments

Unread postby simplelife » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 00:55:37

lawnchair wrote:Since most of their assets are in real estate, they have an alternative to valuing them to-the-market (in which case, their value would be rapidly approaching nil). Rather, they can take the county tax assessor's word for it. And the county assessor both doesn't have a 'comparable sale' nearby for such a property in the last few years (when did the last mall sell?), and knows that sharply cutting the valuation evicerates the property tax base (even if the owners aren't going to be able to pay their taxes soon enough).

disagree, if gov simply pays off all morgages with printed money we have a reset, and off we go.
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