[Leanan]

Freight rates for containers shipped from Asia to Europe have fallen to zero for the first time since records began, underscoring the dramatic collapse in trade since the world economy buckled in October.

... A report by ING yesterday said shipping activity at US ports has suddenly dived. Outbound traffic from Long Beach and Los Angeles, America's two top ports, has fallen by 18pc year-on-year, a far more serious decline than anything seen in recent recessions.
"This is no regular cycle slowdown, but a complete collapse in foreign demand," said Lindsay Coburn, ING's trade consultant.

Idle ships are now stretched in rows outside Singapore's harbour, creating an eerie silhouette like a vast naval fleet at anchor. Shipping experts note the number of vessels moving around seem unusually high in the water, indicating low cargoes.

link

[Sixstrings]

Freight rates for containers shipped from Asia to Europe have fallen to zero for the first time since records began, underscoring the dramatic collapse in trade since the world economy buckled in October.

Ouch, that doesn't sound good. I'd do my part and go buy some Chinese junk but can't think of anything I need.

[Byron100]

If rates are zero, why do the shipping owners even bother to sail at all? I am totally stumped - how can rates be at ZERO??

Does this mean we're going to start seeing shortages at Wal-Mart pretty soon?

Guess time will soon tell...

[Leanan]

The customers pay a "fuel surcharge" of a few hundred dollars. Something is better than nothing.

No, I don't expect shortages at Wal-mart. The problem is nobody is buying. That's why the ships are empty. Wal-mart's shelves are full, and they don't need any more Chinese junk at the moment.

This is also why there are worries about unrest in China, as factories close and workers are left jobless.

[TWilliam]

Ouch, that doesn't sound good. I'd do my part and go buy some Chinese junk but can't think of anything I need.

Since when does Patriotic Consumption have anything to do with 'need'?

[RdSnt]

The shelves may be full now, but the bulk rates are forward looking. Shipping of goods has a lag built into it that can sometimes be months, meaning that stuff is ships could be for next falls store shelves.
If indeed shipping has come to a halt, then I would expect some prices to start soaring this summer, or shortages to appear.

Also, consider that stores are now stuck with dated merchandise that they need to get off their books. Then there is the cargo, material already manufactured, sitting dockside with no place to go.

There is a huge choke point in the pipeline with no means of clearing it.

[Ludi]

"around the margins--the crap we don't need" = jobs

[Leanan]

"around the margins--the crap we don't need" = jobs

Exactly. This means a raft of pink slips up ahead.

[bratticus]

Does this mean we're going to start seeing shortages at Wal-Mart pretty soon?

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic49862-0-asc-30.html

Read peakoil.com much?

[jdmartin]

"around the margins--the crap we don't need" = jobs

You often make that point and I agree. (saying the same in my following, poorly formed sentence.)

It points to a further 12% decline in USA employment. That's because 75% of American 'work' involves moving and managing that very 'crap'-- from the docks, to the big box stores, (and around the store to shelves, checkout counter, parking lot, etc.), the car (and the gas station and fast food on the way home) and finally to the family. Oops they don't have cash

pstarr, do you have a source on the 75%? I'd like to have that someplace I could bookmark. I believe the number, btw. That's one thing that the "now everyone will have to live within their means" crowd never acknowledges - that "all that crap" is someone's livelihood. It's a righteous attitude.

[lawnchair]

That's one thing that the "now everyone will have to live within their means" crowd never acknowledges - that "all that crap" is someone's livelihood. It's a righteous attitude.

No easy number for it, but 75%, possibly more, isn't far-fetched for me. Cutting back gets *deep*. Our school district is losing students, as unemployed stay-at-home parents pull toward homeschooling (the state blesses and provides online curriculum & instructional material). Dentists are seeing dramatic slowdowns. Etc, etc.

Th technological bounty that meant we were able to have more hairdressers than farmers is beautiful. Declining extracted energy might eventually undermine the tech, but we're nowhere near that point. Nor, logically, should it just fall over.

The green and arguably sane conclusion is that we don't need to be consuming so much *or* working so much. 30 hour weeks, if not less. However, humans are evolved toward jealousy and acquisitions. They can easily work 70 hours of hard labor a week, if it means they or their kid has more than someone else's. And, they get twitchy and warlike when there isn't enough to do.

[Leanan]

But I think that's also a consequence of the way we have been brought up, especially in the colonial and post-colonial West. In many other countries people are very happy with Siesta's and long meals etc.

Very true. This used to drive the missionaries crazy in Hawaii. They thought the Hawaiians were lazy. The Hawaiians, meanwhile, saw no reason to work if the job was done.

Even today, some organizations in Hawaii offer a system where you do a certain amount of work, then you can go home. No matter what time it is.

[Byron100]

But I think that's also a consequence of the way we have been brought up, especially in the colonial and post-colonial West. In many other countries people are very happy with Siesta's and long meals etc.

Very true. This used to drive the missionaries crazy in Hawaii. They thought the Hawaiians were lazy. The Hawaiians, meanwhile, saw no reason to work if the job was done.

Even today, some organizations in Hawaii offer a system where you do a certain amount of work, then you can go home. No matter what time it is.

I would LOVE to live in a society like that. This whole idea of staying on the clock for 8 hours a day regardless if the job is done or not is just insane - I mean, what's the point of "finding" stuff to do, or "looking busy" just to run out the clock each day?

The current employment system we have in effect today has got to go, and soon at that. What it'll be replaced with, I don't know, but the way I've lived my life for the past 11 years might give a clue. I just do what needs to be done, and nothing more. And it's really not that hard to fight the instinct of "gotta have more" than the next person - I say it's time for us humans to start managing our own evolution.

We've got big brains and a knack for figuring things out. I say let's get out there and get it done...if those "lazy" Hawaiians were able to live the way they did, there's no reason for us being able to do the same in the post-peak era.

But we gotta let go of the old paradigm first, and yes, I know that's far easier said than done. But it CAN be done. And it will be done, for we have no choice in the matter.

[ReverseEngineer]

But I think that's also a consequence of the way we have been brought up, especially in the colonial and post-colonial West. In many other countries people are very happy with Siesta's and long meals etc.

The problem left unresolved in the promotion here of a society where people do not really need to work so much is just how you distribute out the food and shelter to the people?

We can no doubt keep producing food for quite some time, we certainly have plenty of shelters built. How, in the absence of jobs and functioning money do we equitably distribute out the food and the shelter?

Reverse Engineer

[Ludi]

The green and arguably sane conclusion is that we don't need to be consuming so much *or* working so much. 30 hour weeks, if not less. However, humans are evolved toward jealousy and acquisitions. They can easily work 70 hours of hard labor a week, if it means they or their kid has more than someone else's. And, they get twitchy and warlike when there isn't enough to do.

Not really. Most cultures didn't work more than 4 hours a day, because they didn't need to. They had all they needed to live comfortably, and there was no advantage to working harder. Our culture and society rewards extra work, or at least holds out the potential of reward for hard work.

I'm a proponent of the "work less" ethic, myself. I work an average of 4 hours a day on paying work (varies depending on the deadline). But I have the advantage of working for myself, so I can set my own hours to a large degree.

Anyway, back to work!