[Pops]

Seems to me there must be at least one other person at PO.com proud to be an American at this time.

Or am I wrong?

[Quinny]

National Pride has always been an alien concept to me. I've always felt like a Lancastrian, but always felt a bit ashamed about the behaviour of the English imperialist past.


How can you be proud of your nation?

[Plantagenet]

I'm very proud of the U.S....ESPECIALLY at this time. The peaceful transition of power from one administration to the next is one of the marvels of American democracy. President Obama will give another one of his incredibly powerful and moving speeches, and the country will move forward.

[Leanan]

I used to be. Not anymore.

Not because we as a nation are any worse than we've ever been. Nor because other nations are any better.

It's because I'm seeing the bigger picture now. And it's all about resources. Our nation has done well because of its natural resources. Anyone in charge of such wealth would do well. We were born on third base and thought we hit a triple.

[Pops]

How can you be proud of your nation?

Just like one can be proud of their grandkids or grandparents:

Because they are your's.

Shortcomings, weaknesses, foibles and all, they are all essentially you.


You really have no allegiance to the place which allows you to say publicly that you have no pride in the fortune your birthplace?

[Plantagenet]

Our nation has done well because of its natural resources. Anyone in charge of such wealth would do well. We were born on third base and thought we hit a triple.

Not really.

Russia has at least as many natural resources in Siberia as the US had, and they've made rather a cock-up out of it. And neither Africa or South America provide anysupport to the argument that abundant natural resources automatically translate into "doing well."

[mattduke]

[Quinny]

To me it's totally different. I'm proud of (some of) my families achievements and understand their weaknesses foibles and all. Loving them unconditionally is not a problem, not always proud of their actions, doesn't stop me loving them.

To me nationalism/patriotism is not only the last refuge of a scoundrel, but also basically used as propaganda to divide and rule ordinary people. War's are fought because of the nationalistic propaganda encouraged by TPTB.

I have some Irish blood in me - how can I be proud of a nation that treated the Irish the way they did!

How can you be proud of your nation?

Just like one can be proud of their grandkids or grandparents:

Because they are your's.

Shortcomings, weaknesses, foibles and all, they are all essentially you.


You really have no allegiance to the place which allows you to say publicly that you have no pride in the fortune your birthplace?

[Leanan]

Russia has at least as many natural resources in Siberia as the US had, and they've made rather a cock-up out of it. And neither Africa or South America provide anysupport to the argument that abundant natural resources automatically translate into "doing well."

Disagree. None of those countries has the resources the US had. I'm not just talking about things like gold and oil. I mean things like forestland and farmland, too.

Jared Diamond discusses this in Guns, Germs, and Steel. Russia was not the unexploited continent North America was. And the European model just doesn't work that well in tropical areas like Africa and South America.

[NoWorries]

As a Canadian (parents of British extraction) I've never understood the concept of patriotism at all. "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels," as the saying goes. Whenever someone starts banging the drum about how their nation surpasses all others, it strikes me as absurd and childish.

Every nation and people have their strong points and weak points. To say that one nation is "best in the world" is a very subjective comment.

However, I will grant that there are two valuable inheritances which make the West stand out for the better:


1) English common law system (which has given us the Rule of Law);
2) Responsible government (i.e.--democratically elected).


These are vitally important institutions, and I think much western progress is owing to them. Other than that, I wouldn't want to lay claim to being "the best" of anything. We should defend these ideals, certainly, but let's not buy into the notion of "My country, right or wrong," please.

[Ayoob]

Russia has at least as many natural resources in Siberia as the US had, and they've made rather a cock-up out of it. And neither Africa or South America provide anysupport to the argument that abundant natural resources automatically translate into "doing well."

Disagree. None of those countries has the resources the US had. I'm not just talking about things like gold and oil. I mean things like forestland and farmland, too.

Jared Diamond discusses this in Guns, Germs, and Steel. Russia was not the unexploited continent North America was. And the European model just doesn't work that well in tropical areas like Africa and South America.

The American model works very well in those areas, as long as they're populated with Americans.

[skeptik]

Seems to me there must be at least one other person at PO.com proud to be an American at this time.

Or am I wrong?

I have trouble with the concepts underlying this question. I'm not 'proud' to be English - it's just an accident of birth. I consider myself lucky to be English - I could have had a much worse life if I'd been born elsewhere.

"Given the choice of betraying a friend or betraying my country, I hope I'd have the decency to betray my country"

[Cloud9]

I'm proud to be an American. It is not about what we are at any given moment it is about what we aspire to be.

[dukey]

[AlexdeLarge]

I am very proud to be American!! ( But then I know what its like to live elsewhere.)

You have been poisoned by listenening to the mainstream media trash America at every opportunity in order to demonize Bush and get their pigeon elected. "The One's" mentor Rev. Wright hates the country and his best buddy Bill Ayers wipes his feet on the flag. But I'm sure the messiah was not influenced by their tutoring and at least his wife is finally proud to be a citizen.

So now we have a whole government that dispises their country and its traditions and will do their level best to remake it into some new "honorable" nation. How very nice of them.

[Pops]

We were born on third base and thought we hit a triple.

Very true about what we took (and are still taking) from our virgin lands.

But tell me of a culture with more advanced technologies than previous inhabitants (or no inhabitants) who didn't feel and do the same?

And as to those who piously toss out the "last defense of a scoundrel" quote, I'm thinking I would ask you to seriously consider wherein lies your last defense?


Kind of a tough question unless one feels some kinship to their country and it's system, is it not?

[NoWorries]

Mod: I didn't make the comment in an anti-American spirit, so please don't take it as such.

And to "dukey": The excesses and depredations of American foreign policy (or those who act to carry out that policy) hardly form the entirety of America's contribution to global affairs, or humanity in general.

There is good and bad in everyone. National legacies are no different.

[Cynus]

The British used to be extremely proud of their nation. I suppose when you lose your Empire you lose your pride as well. Philosopher Richard Rorty writes that "National pride is to a country what self-respect is to individuals; a necessary condition for self-improvement." Those who belittle patriotism generally think that one can only be proud of when they themselves have accomplished. But this lies on a mistaken notion of the self. Cultures are idea copy-chains. Under "idea" I include beliefs, behaviors, art, and morals. Over time, ideas are copied, sometimes altered, and then passed down through generations. This is a very different conception of culture from those who define a culture as a set of beliefs and customs. In this way it makes sense to speak of "Western culture" despite the fact that what today constitutes Western culture is very different from any other historical period. Western culture is a copy-chain descending from the Greeks, and even though what we call Western culture today is very different from the beliefs, morals, art, and behavior of the Greeks, our ideas originated from them and have been copied and modified through the various historical eras of the Romans, Middle Ages, Renaissance, and the Enlightenment in a chain leading back to them. The chains do branch however (sorry for the mixed metaphor). And although, say, American culture and French culture are very different, they both are branches of the tree that started with the Greeks and are thus both part of the Western heritage. (I am aware that the Greeks also inherited the ideas they revolutionarily altered.) To have a culture is to have your ideas, beliefs, arts, and morals be the latest link in a copy-chain and to acknowledge that your identity is the result of this chain.

Our bodies are copy-chains as well, but here it is our genes that are inherited, sometimes altered, and then passed down through generations. Having a culture originally was to have your family lineage be part of the biological copy-chain that was the means by which ideas were passed down--the biological copy-chain, and the idea copy-chain followed the same path. Your heritage is your identity in that all your beliefs, possessions, values, arts, even your body, in short, everything about you, is the result of your historical heritage. Thus, it is not merely an accident that one is born British or American or Canadian, it is essential to who you are since if you were born elsewhere you would possess a different history and identity. People ought to value and honor the customs and heritage as well as the tragedies and triumphs of their ancestors. It makes sense to say that "we" suffered the defeats, or that "we" enjoyed the triumphs of our ancestors in the sense that we are a link in the great copy-chain that traces back to our ancestors and defines who we are. For example, in the United States you will hear that "we" defeated the British, the Germans, and the Communists when strictly speaking, very few living people did any of these things. When it is understood that ones identity stretches back through history, and the debt one owes to those who formulated the ideas, and values, they you have inherited, you really can not have self-esteem without patriotism.

[Auntie_Cipation]

Pride is a response to a specific accomplishment, not a general feeling.

When I set my mind or my body to some challenge, and accomplish it, I feel proud of myself for that accomplishment.

When I see another person do the same, I feel proud of them for that accomplishment.

I might disapprove of other decisions that person makes, I might not even like them, but I can be proud of them for that particular thing they did.

So, yes, I can feel proud of my country for a specific accomplishment such as electing a non-white president.

Doesn't mean I like anything else going on around here, though...

[Plantagenet]

Jared Diamond discusses this in Guns, Germs, and Steel. Russia was not the unexploited continent North America was.

I met Prof. Diamond when he was here at the University. A nice man, but tending to gross oversimplifications.

In fact, Siberia WAS a huge, unexploited land mass sprawling across Asia much like the area that was to be the US crossed North America, except that Siberia is even BIGGER then the continental US. Siberia was virtually unpopulated except for stone-age peoples who were easily swept aside by the Russians, and Siberia contained untold wealth in furs, gold, strategic minerals, oil and natural gas. The Russians both under the Czars and the Soviets cared only about exploiting Siberia, and never encouraged emmigration and settlement (except for gulags), and never allowed private land ownership, private subdivisions for towns and farms, private prospecting, private mines, private farms, private forests for forestry products etc. etc.

The poverty and problems in Siberia are a direct result of the bad social policies of the Czars and then the Russian socialists and now the current kleptocrats, and do not reflect any lack of natural resources and oil wealth in Siberia.