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Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

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Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Buggy » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 23:32:11

This one woke me up. We are clearly, completely, utterly screwed. Monetize equals game over. Post WW1 Germany, Argentina, Zimbabwe, and the US.
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Federal obligations exceed world GDP Does $65.5 trillion terrify anyone yet?
Posted: 13 Feb 2009, 11:35 pm Eastern, By Jerome R. Corsi © 2009 WorldNetDaily:

As the Obama administration pushes through Congress its $800 billion deficit-spending economic stimulus plan, the American public is largely unaware that the true deficit of the federal government already is measured in trillions of dollars, and in fact its $65.5 trillion in total obligations exceeds the gross domestic product of the world. The total U.S. obligations, including Social Security and Medicare benefits to be paid in the future, effectively have placed the U.S. government in bankruptcy, even before new continuing social welfare obligation embedded in the massive spending plan are taken into account.

The real 2008 federal budget deficit was $5.1 trillion, not the $455 billion previously reported by the Congressional Budget Office, according to the "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" as released by the U.S. Department of Treasury. The difference between the $455 billion "official" budget deficit numbers and the $5.1 trillion budget deficit cited by "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" is that the official budget deficit is calculated on a cash basis, where all tax receipts, including Social Security tax receipts, are used to pay government liabilities as they occur.

But the numbers in the 2008 report are calculated on a GAAP basis ("Generally Accepted Accounting Practices") that include year-for-year changes in the net present value of unfunded liabilities in social insurance programs such as Social Security and Medicare. Under cash accounting, the government makes no provision for future Social Security and Medicare benefits in the year in which those benefits accrue.

"As bad as 2008 was, the $455 billion budget deficit on a cash basis and the $5.1 trillion federal budget deficit on a GAAP accounting basis does not reflect any significant money [from] the financial bailout or Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, which was approved after the close of the fiscal year," economist John Williams, who publishes the Internet website Shadow Government Statistics, told WND.

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"The Congressional Budget Office estimated the fiscal year 2009 budget deficit as being $1.2 trillion on a cash basis and that was before taking into consideration the full costs of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, before the cost of the Obama nearly $800 billion economic stimulus plan, or the cost of the second $350 billion in TARP funds, as well as all current bailouts being contemplated by the U.S. Treasury and Federal Reserve," he said.

"The federal government's deficit is hemorrhaging at a pace which threatens the viability of the financial system," Williams added. "The popularly reported 2009 [deficit] will clearly exceed $2 trillion on a cash basis and that full amount has to be funded by Treasury borrowing. "It's not likely this will happen without the Federal Reserve acting as lender of last resort for the Treasury by buying Treasury debt and monetizing the debt," he said.

"Monetizing the debt" is a term used to signify that the Federal Reserve will be required simply to print cash to meet the Treasury debt obligations, acting in this capacity only because the Treasury cannot sell the huge of amount debt elsewhere. The Treasury has been largely dependent upon foreign buyers, principally China and Japan and other major holders of U.S. dollar foreign exchange reserves, including OPEC buyers purchasing U.S. debt through London.

"The appetite of foreign buyers to purchase continued trillions of U.S. debt has become more questionable as the world has witnessed the rapid deterioration of the U.S. fiscal condition in the current financial crisis," Williams noted.

"Truthfully," Williams pointed out, "there is no Social Security 'lock-box.' There are no funds held in reserve today for Social Security and Medicare obligations that are earned each year. It's only a matter of time until the public realizes that the government is truly bankrupt and no taxes are being held in reserve to pay in the future the Social Security and Medicare benefits taxpayers are earning today."

Calculations from the "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" also show that the GAAP negative net worth of the federal government has increased to $59.3 trillion while the total federal obligations under GAAP accounting now total $65.5 trillion. The $65.5 trillion total federal obligations under GAAP accounting not only now exceed four times the U.S. gross domestic product, or GDP, the $65.5 trillion deficit exceeds total world GDP.

"In the seven years of GAAP reporting, we have seen an annual average deficit in excess of $4 trillion, which could not be possibly covered by any form of taxation," Williams argued. "Shy of the government severely slashing social welfare programs, federal deficits of this magnitude are beyond any hope of containment, government or otherwise," he said.

"Put simply, there is no way the government can possibly pay for the level of social welfare benefits the federal government has promised unless the government simply prints cash and debases the currency, which the government will increasingly be doing this year," Williams said, explaining in more detail why he feels the government is now in the process of monetizing the federal debt.

"Social Security and Medicare must be shown as liabilities on the federal balance sheet in the year they accrue according to GAAP accounting," Williams argues. "To do otherwise is irresponsible, nothing more than an attempt to hide the painful truth from the American public. The public has a right to know just how bad off the federal government budget deficit situation really is, especially since the situation is rapidly spinning out of control.

"The federal government is bankrupt," Williams told WND. "In a post-Enron world, if the federal government were a corporation such as General Motors, the president and senior Treasury officers would be in federal penitentiary."
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 14 Feb 2009, 23:35:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby deMolay » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 23:38:35

As the jobless numbers rise, chaos will result as hundreds of thousands, millions worldwide become desitute homeless and hungry. Put every dime you can into the doomstead food supplies. It will be ugly and very dangerous.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Buggy » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 23:42:35

deMolay wrote:As the jobless numbers rise, chaos will result as hundreds of thousands, millions worldwide become desitute homeless and hungry. Put every dime you can into the doomstead food supplies. It will be ugly and very dangerous.


Wise counsel. Roosevelt left no rabbits in the hat for Obama. Definitely time to restock.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby deMolay » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 23:45:25

This is scary scary shit buggy. It is worse than any of us suspected. We know here, wait until this becomes widespread public knowledge.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Buggy » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 00:03:16

deMolay wrote:This is scary scary shit buggy. It is worse than any of us suspected. We know here, wait until this becomes widespread public knowledge.


It really is worse than suspected. I had my eye too fixed on the peak oil timeline. I thought we had more time. But it turns out the elephant in the room was exponential debt. Exponential debt beat peak oil to the punch. I am thankful for peak oil though. Had it not been for PO I would still be swimming in debt and unprepared.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 01:00:31

The nice thing about these obligations is that they are future obligations.

This is not debt..

Putting it on the personal level...

I have an income (tax revenue). I have a credit card bill but I only pay part of my credit card bill (federal deficit). I have built up a large credit card balance (federal debt). I have a rent payment that is due every month (federal spending). I will have to pay rent in the year 2037 (future federal obligations).

Which of these should I be most concerned about? It's not the 2037 rent payment. I can reduce that figure by moving (cutting future obligations).

The lion's share of those future obligations are in the form of Medicare and Medicaid spending. They are using today's growth rates and projecting them into the future.

Well I've got news for you. Medical costs aren't going to be rising at today's levels for the next 75 years. Those figures are complete and utter crap.

The real level of unfunded future federal obligations is far less than $65 Trillion.

Articles like this one are nothing but fear-mongering by people who haven't looked at the data. I used to think we were doomed because of these unfunded liabilities but if you look at what they are actually predicting...it's not nearly so dire.

It's still a seriously high figure, don't get me wrong. But it's not the End of The World figure of $65 Trillion.

Oh, and that $65 Trillion number is meant to be spread out over 75 years. It's not as if we are going to get hit with that bill tomorrow.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 01:39:27

It's still a seriously high figure, don't get me wrong. But it's not the End of The World figure of $65 Trillion.

Oh, and that $65 Trillion number is meant to be spread out over 75 years. It's not as if we are going to get hit with that bill tomorrow.


Good point, Tyler. I've also been skeptical of this issue, as I've never heard Europeans voice any concern about their future deficits, and they have far more extensive social spending. So it never added up to me, how supposedly we're gonna go down just from social security and medicare, while the French and Germans see no looming emergency with their far more expensive entitlements.

We also need to factor in the effect of reasonable changes to social security, changes which won't happen until absolutely necessary. Namely, ss withholding could be raised a bit, retirement age pushed off a bit (admittedly, folks are living much longer and able to work longer), and benefits could be cut of for seniors who have enough assets to support themselves.

So, how much more time would that buy us? Raising the age, cutting off the upper middle and upper classes totally.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 01:51:46

Sixstrings wrote:So, how much more time would that buy us? Raising the age, cutting off the upper middle and upper classes totally.


If the economy was functioning "normally", on an actuarial basis bumping payouts on SS back say 5 more years probably would have kept it solvent for the next 50. However, the economy no longer is functioning properly as more businesses go outta biz and more workers lose their jobs.

As mentioned, there is no huge trust fund sitting in some bank upon which to pay out bennies to retired folks and medicaire recipients. The money to pay them comes out of the tax receipts of the currently employed, out of that line on your W-2 for Social Security contributions. As the number of Unemployed goes up here to 10%, 15% or more, you could try pushing back bennies for 10 years but it wouldn;t much matter because TODAY you couldn't pay out all the bennies to those currently eligible to recieve them TODAY.

Call them unfunded liabilities and make a distinction from the Debt in terms of Bonds held by others if you like, but its not really a significant difference. The fact is that we cannot fund the payments on the debts or the current liabilities in terms of entitlements in the system under the conditions of a financial collapse such as the one we currently are in. You can;t print your way out of it either, that just debases the currency and after all the debts were paid off in funny money on the books you STILL wouldn't be able to fund your entitlements with anything but funny money that would not buy anything, particularly since nothing is being produced.

Don;t worry about your kids or grandckids having to pay off these debts though, they won't be, not in money anyhow. In blood and in a vastly poorer lifestyle they will pay, but not in Taxes. This monetary system is TOAST, and we are just witnessing the machinations as those in power try to save themselves. Its not going to work much longer.

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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 03:19:45

Sixstrings wrote:
It's still a seriously high figure, don't get me wrong. But it's not the End of The World figure of $65 Trillion.

Oh, and that $65 Trillion number is meant to be spread out over 75 years. It's not as if we are going to get hit with that bill tomorrow.


Good point, Tyler. I've also been skeptical of this issue, as I've never heard Europeans voice any concern about their future deficits, and they have far more extensive social spending. So it never added up to me, how supposedly we're gonna go down just from social security and medicare, while the French and Germans see no looming emergency with their far more expensive entitlements.


Actually you can't quite compare the European Systems with the US one. Medicare is a "fallback" option for the people who cannot afford paying for "normal" healthcare in the US.

As such, Medicare is not really "socialized Medicine", if anything it is a handout to individuals and companies for those who cannot really pay the "real cost".

Medical costs in the US are higher on a per person basis because of the way it is structured, if Medicare would be turned into a European (or even Canadian) model the costs would fall and the average accessibility and affordability to would go up.

The way it is currently set up Medicare will become a huge liability for the Federal Govenrment unless they reform it by either:

a.) Model it after the European model (and thus giving up on the idea that Healthcare is a profit opportunity).
b.) Exclude large amounts of people who would have qualified (similar to Employment Insurance maybe?).

Either way, although these are future obligations the current amount of Federal debt is nothing to cough at either, if you add to this the liabilities of State and local Governments, not to mention the personal debt the picture is anything but pretty.

Eventually the liabilities have to be unwound / served, regardless if it is tomorrow or 75 years from now.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 04:13:06

Actually you can't quite compare the European Systems with the US one. Medicare is a "fallback" option for the people who cannot afford paying for "normal" healthcare in the US.


I think you're referring to Medicaid. My understanding is that all seniors use Medicare. My mother has a state pension and healthcare, but the retiree healthcare plan becomes supplemental once Medicare kicks in.

Medicaid covers the poor who do not work. The irony here is that if you work just a little bit, you "make too much" to get medicaid -- even thought your income is nowhere near enough to afford private insurance or full payment.

I never could understand that part of Medicaid.. how it cuts poor people off if they get a job.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 05:52:20

Sixstrings wrote:
Actually you can't quite compare the European Systems with the US one. Medicare is a "fallback" option for the people who cannot afford paying for "normal" healthcare in the US.


I think you're referring to Medicaid. My understanding is that all seniors use Medicare. My mother has a state pension and healthcare, but the retiree healthcare plan becomes supplemental once Medicare kicks in.


Have not been living in the US for a long time, but back when I did my understanding was that in the end they both come out of the same bucket and serve similar purposes, the "target" audience is slightly different though.

Medicaid covers the poor who do not work. The irony here is that if you work just a little bit, you "make too much" to get medicaid -- even thought your income is nowhere near enough to afford private insurance or full payment.

I never could understand that part of Medicaid.. how it cuts poor people off if they get a job.


Welcome to "Modern Socalism", this isn't only the case in regards to healthcare, in almost EVERY Western Country through reforms the moment you even make a penny you end up losing any other benefits you may have, if you can live on it or not.

It's a legacy of "Thatercherism" really.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby deMolay » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 09:17:35

I am not sure I buy the argument that TINGS will be good. I cannot speak to the American issue so much but as a Canadian I do know a bit about the predicament in Canada. For example take the fact that we have a much smaller population, 33 million. Of that number about 15 M are actual real taxpayers. Now take the Canadian Employment insurance scam. The Canadian workers and companies were forced by legislation to pay into the fund. We had a 54B surplus. The Liberal Party under Chretien and Martin took that surplus rolled it into General Revenue and spent it, are you saying that money is not a debt. The Canada Pension Plan and the Quebec Pension Plan had 1.3 Trillion dollars put into it by the workers and employers again in trust held by the Federal Gubmint all that money was taken and spent as well. Is that not a debt now in your system of accounting. I think that money that was stolen is debt and will have to be paid back. Now here is the real problem, Canadian Criminal Level of Taxation. The average Canadian now pays more in taxes than they do for food, clothing, housing and transportation combined. They can't tax anymore. The underground economy is growing fast as it is, due to the Criminal Level of Taxation. It is a debt owed and the state will have to pay it back.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 09:39:20

maybe this is the time for the US government to introduce the Extraterrestrials who are going to bail the whole world out.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Chuckmak » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 10:56:34

pedalling_faster wrote:maybe this is the time for the US government to introduce the Extraterrestrials who are going to bail the whole world out.

:lol:
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Buggy » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 13:56:19

I get all the different sides of the argument here. I do. The 65 trillion doesn't scare me. There isn't a person on this planet that can comprehend that amount or the soon to be13 trillion national debt. What scares me is that it is almost lunch time and we're not gonna be able to find anybody to loan us a single dollar. Whether it is one dollar or one hundred trillion dollars is inconsequential. And what do bullies do when they don't get what they want???? I comprehend that.
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Jotapay » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 20:19:29

Can I buy a $1 trillion CDS against the US government?
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Re: Federal obligations exceed world's GDP

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 22:00:45

Jotapay wrote:Can I buy a $1 trillion CDS against the US government?


You can.

And they are getting more expensive every day as the deficits expand.

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