[Quinny]

It's often been said that timing is everything.

I once appointed a headteacher to a local secondary school, and a few months after the interview he told me how he'd been devastated when he'd seen I was on the interview panel, as he'd had feedback from the governors from a previous school where he'd been turned down.

What he struggled to understand was that although I had been vociferous in my opposition to his appointment to the first school, I had been his strongest supporter for the second job (a bigger school by the way and a much higher paid job).

The point was that the first school needed a safe pair of hands and his approach was not what was required at that time the second school needed his more radical approach.

My initial attempts to speak to people about PO not only fell on deaf ears, but resulted in a certain amount of ridicule. I've found this has changed recently and many people who were initialy skeptical are actually seeking my opinion on 'What to do'?

I don't have answers as such, but both in my village and my extended family the question has changed from 'What the fark is Quinny talking about?" to "Should we be taking more notice of what he's saying".

My 'field' was initially greeted with 'You must be crazy' (only a few weeks back) and now family members are asking to come and see what we're planning. My brewing which was originally seen as a hobby for a skinflint is now attracting not just interest, but people wanting to purchase wine and beer!

IS THE TIME RIGHT?

I class myself as a doomer, but also hope that for those that can make it that life can actually be rewarding 'on the other side' I believe that communiy is the key element left out of many doomers plans and NOW is the time to start engaging/coming out. People (and not just middle class 'green aware' types) are becoming more receptive to the need for rapid change.

My philosophy has changed from don't tell anyone else, to lets try and build relationships that might survive the coming storm. It seems to be working at the moment, but only time will tell.

For those who've tried in the past, it might be the time to raise the issue again with Family and Friends you care about. All you risk is ridicule, as opposed to potentially saving some grateful allies for the future!

[kiwichick]

you might be right Quinny but it's a fine line

i think i'm getting slightly more positive vibes but most people are a lost cause

[Newfie]

I've been working on this both with my Wife and my church group and with some at work and on a news group.

My Wife, a bright woman, has embraced it and much of the doomer predictions. We are making preps.

My church group, we are a bunch of religious Humanist (Ethical Humanist), is a mixed bag. They generally agree there are God awful problems but they still want to save the world. Do "nice" things for people. This is as thoughtful a group of people as you will find. Many professionals: doctors, lawyers, social workers, etc. People who have dedicated their lives to social activism. They just can NOT see that things are out of their hands and they need to protect themselves.

At work, many engineers, again a nice and smart group of people involved in mass transit - so a generally pro-green culture. Here some get, more than most places.

Then there is a newsgroup that has some pretty smart guys talking about sailing. There are also a bunch of butts out there. There Global Warming, Peak Oil, etc. is attacked with religious ferocity generally regulated to the heretic. Some see the light, they generally are the most mature in there posts. Most are hopeless.

My personal concern is more over population than Peak Oil although they are so tightly joined I see them as two sides of one issue. I sense that many more people really do see population as a extreme concern, but that it is:
a) way beyond their control
b) they are afraid to talk about it either because they will scare others or they will scare themselves.

I do think that there is a slow awakening in the populace. However I am not convinced that is as good as it may seem. Humans tend to be herd animals. If the herd sees Peak Oil/GW/Population as a huge problem then we may get a "solution" none of us wants. I don't want to die getting run over by the herd. I want to just quietly slip away and take car of my family.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

I have tried. I still send economic articles and preface them for those I am sure won't read or wade through confusing and long pieces. But for the most part they all nod and sound like they agree, but I don't believe it.

I am just getting an agreement for the sake of arguement and its annoying but inevitable in a family that just denies or adjusts reality for their purposes. Part of it is made up of people who think they are going to be raptured before anything really bad happens and they drive me insane. I can't talk to those ones anymore, and I have lost a couple friends over this.

I think the more scairy its getting the more they want to stick their heads in the sand. I don't really blame them. there are times now when I want to take a sleeping pill and forget it all too. I think today, when I get home from work I'm gonna have a couple beer, pet my cats and plan out a rabbit hutch... again. Save a few for me too ok?

[Quinny]

To be honest although PO is the root of the problem, I see population and hence food as the issue that will hit us first. I am particularly concerned about JIT food and the reliance on food at a distance, doesn't make sense, never has done.

If we can start growing food on a local basis, although there will still be massive die-off, we may be able to move forward.

[Newfie]

To be honest although PO is the root of the problem, I see population and hence food as the issue that will hit us first. I am particularly concerned about JIT food and the reliance on food at a distance, doesn't make sense, never has done.

If we can start growing food on a local basis, although there will still be massive die-off, we may be able to move forward.

That is just the kind of thing I was trying to instigate - take a couple of bombed out and leveled city blocks and convert them to a garden. Here in Philadelphia there are neighborhoods where that kind of thing is going on, but because the people who live there are poor and resourceful. It is the well to do and highly educated middle classes that cluck there tongues "tisk, tisk, tisk" at the misery and injustice throughout the world but can't see it coming to their neighborhood.

They still think they will save the world by donating to "Save the Children" and Greenpeace and buying a hybrid and writing to their congressman. They are moving, but slower than glaciers in Greenland.

[Nefarious]

Now is not the time to tell people about peak oil. Your time was when oil was $147 a barrel, now when it is $39 a barrel forget about it. Some people that were starting to wake up when the price of crude was going through the roof have now sunk back into blissful ignorance and are saying "see I told you so"
If you want to get through to people now, your best bet is the economic collapse and how bad things are going to get and why stimulus packages are eminent doom . You stand a fair share better getting someone to listen to you in that area than peak oil..

[Nefarious]

The world-wide economic implosion is peak oil. This is the best time to explain that, because people have been shaken up (and are less confident of endless prosperity) and they might listen. Possibly?

Soon after the US financial bailout is finalized and implemented (when a small degree of market/financial stability is established and consumption resumes) then oil demand will incrementally increase . . . and come up against the production ceiling. This time around prices will shoot up quickly and there will be no going back. The crisis and panic will be astounding.

You give the sheeple to much credit in critical thinking and do you think bailouts will really stabilize the economy and reverse this depression that we are just now starting to get into?

[Newfie]

The world-wide economic implosion is peak oil. This is the best time to explain that, because people have been shaken up (and are less confident of endless prosperity) and they might listen. Possibly?

Soon after the US financial bailout is finalized and implemented (when a small degree of market/financial stability is established and consumption resumes) then oil demand will incrementally increase . . . and come up against the production ceiling. This time around prices will shoot up quickly and there will be no going back. The crisis and panic will be astounding.

You give the sheeple to much credit in critical thinking and do you think bailouts will really stabilize the economy and reverse this depression that we are just now starting to get into?

I think (hope?) you guys are BOTH right. My bet is we will see a bump in the economy, followed by quickly rising fuel prices, followed by a second down turn, with oil sort of fumbling along. There maybe several oscillations to this before the economy goes into a slow perpetual retreat.

Any yes, the sheeple are sheeple. I have come to the conclusion there is very little you can do to educate them. They just don't want to know.

Is this the equivalent of Germany in 1937? How come a few could see and got out while most did not? The unimaginable is going to happen and, because they can not, will not, imagine it they will be forced to witness it.

I hope you BOTH are right because I have been wrong before and left my money exposed too long and got caught. I'm hoping we will see a bump so I get my money out. None-the-less, we are taking serious precautions. Perhaps that will wake up some of our acquaintances. Probably not.

We will see. Surely before the next election cycle.

[Ludi]

My family is always so busy dealing with major health problems I'm not going to bother them with more bad news. We'll be here for them if they need us, but beyond that, I'm just not able to do anything.

[Nefarious]

I'm curious as to why people think there will be another up turn in the economy and the next downturn will be the one that gets us.

[Ludi]

I'm curious as to why people think there will be another up turn in the economy and the next downturn will be the one that gets us.

Personally, and this is just me being a doomer, I expect a long slide down from here.

Nobody knows if the (cussed) "recovery package/stimulus" will even work! To pin our hopes on it, is, I think, probably dreaming.

[Newfie]

I'm curious as to why people think there will be another up turn in the economy and the next downturn will be the one that gets us.

Nefarious, it is my gut speaking. I don't know enough to give any kind of intellectual answer. But......

My general understanding is that our economy is based more on "trust" or "faith" than anything else. It is the "faith" that things will work out that makes them so damned hard to talk to reasonably. Anyway that faith will float the economy on top of all the money that is being dropped in, if just for a while. Then, I'm afraid, it will be a bad time.

Just staying with my gut feeling on this and looking at the psychology of the system, Obama sold people on "hope" and "change" and faith. But even he does not believe it. His words are preparing people for a tough time to come, he is trying to lower expectations. Yet that is not what people elected him for. They elected him to lift them out of this morass.

When he can't, and the despair comes home to roost, it will be ugly.

Therefore I, a life long Democrat, did not vote for Obama. I voted Libertarian or something. I would have rather seen McCain win not because I prefer McCain's philosophy but because we would have had fewer hopes for him and then tried to do things in a collective fashion, in spite of him.

I'm probably over thinking this. As I said this is my gut speaking. Let's hope I just have indigestion.

[mos6507]

The world-wide economic implosion is peak oil.

You never stop trying, do you?

[mos6507]

Unfortunately the topic is drifting bigtime.

On the subject of whether to "come out" or not, this topic was extremely timely because I just "came out" to my mom yesterday. She already knew I was into the topic because she was there when my jaw hit the floor on LifeAfterTheOilCrash. But she never knew how much it stuck with me. So I talked her ear off for about 6 hours on the topic. I think she actually gets it which really surprises me. But she told me not to bother trying to talk to my dad. He's going to just have to go along for the ride with whatever she decides to do. So I think I'm largely in sync with my mom and my sister. Neither of them are truly educated in all the information, though. The first time out of the gates, I think it means more to have the message come from a family member than to sit your relatives down to watch a movie. Hopefully in time they will be open to getting more info.

I've also "come out" on my Myspace page which means my cousin and some of my friends will now know.

To me it doesn't matter anymore that oil prices have tanked. Even if oil was abiotic we'd cook the planet anyway. Humanity is going to be checkmated by multiple pieces. If you knock one piece off, there are still enough left to checkmate. I just don't think it's healthy to keep this stuff bottled up inside. You really should feel free to express yourself to your inner circle at least. Especially when you begin to walk the walk, it's just not workable to keep coming up with cover stories for your preps.

[graham]

Unfortunately the topic is drifting bigtime.

On the subject of whether to "come out" or not, this topic was extremely timely because I just "came out" to my mom yesterday. She already knew I was into the topic because she was there when my jaw hit the floor on LifeAfterTheOilCrash. But she never knew how much it stuck with me. So I talked her ear off for about 6 hours on the topic. I think she actually gets it which really surprises me. But she told me not to bother trying to talk to my dad. He's going to just have to go along for the ride with whatever she decides to do. So I think I'm largely in sync with my mom and my sister. Neither of them are truly educated in all the information, though. The first time out of the gates, I think it means more to have the message come from a family member than to sit your relatives down to watch a movie. Hopefully in time they will be open to getting more info.

I've also "come out" on my Myspace page which means my cousin and some of my friends will now know.

To me it doesn't matter anymore that oil prices have tanked. Even if oil was abiotic we'd cook the planet anyway. Humanity is going to be checkmated by multiple pieces. If you knock one piece off, there are still enough left to checkmate. I just don't think it's healthy to keep this stuff bottled up inside. You really should feel free to express yourself to your inner circle at least. Especially when you begin to walk the walk, it's just not workable to keep coming up with cover stories for your preps.

I was just reading your posts on your difficulties converting a McMansion to passivehaus standards. I take it you're finding this almost impossible to do. Im not a fully qualified architect yet (I've 4 years work experience, and am in my 3rd year BA) but if you'd like any advice feel free to ask.

[Ludi]

Especially when you begin to walk the walk, it's just not workable to keep coming up with cover stories for your preps.

In our case we've always been interested in "going green" or "simple living," which my folks pay lip service to (but don't actually walk the talk to any observable degree), so our activities don't seem too weird to them. They don't know about the emergency food supply or guns, though.

[Quinny]

The bold underlined struck a chord with me! When you suddenly start turning up in wellies and covered in mud (especially when you've never gardened previously) people tend to start asking questions!

[quote="mos6507"]Unfortunately the topic is drifting bigtime.

On the subject of whether to "come out" or not, this topic was extremely timely because I just "came out" to my mom yesterday. She already knew I was into the topic because she was there when my jaw hit the floor on LifeAfterTheOilCrash. But she never knew how much it stuck with me. So I talked her ear off for about 6 hours on the topic. I think she actually gets it which really surprises me. But she told me not to bother trying to talk to my dad. He's going to just have to go along for the ride with whatever she decides to do. So I think I'm largely in sync with my mom and my sister. Neither of them are truly educated in all the information, though. The first time out of the gates, I think it means more to have the message come from a family member than to sit your relatives down to watch a movie. Hopefully in time they will be open to getting more info.

I've also "come out" on my Myspace page which means my cousin and some of my friends will now know.

To me it doesn't matter anymore that oil prices have tanked. Even if oil was abiotic we'd cook the planet anyway. Humanity is going to be checkmated by multiple pieces. If you knock one piece off, there are still enough left to checkmate. I just don't think it's healthy to keep this stuff bottled up inside. You really should feel free to express yourself to your inner circle at least. Especially when you begin to walk the walk, it's just not workable to keep coming up with cover stories for your preps.[/quote]

[mos6507]

In our case we've always been interested in "going green" or "simple living," which my folks pay lip service to (but don't actually walk the talk to any observable degree), so our activities don't seem too weird to them. They don't know about the emergency food supply or guns, though.

To me, sharing the fact that you have a doomer outlook on the future is the bombshell, not the preps themselves which are more of a curiosity (at least on my case they would be as I am planning on deferring on the guns, razorwire, robotic sentry guns, moats stocked with crocks, and boobytraps for the forseeable future). Once you tell the McMansion neighbor that you don't buy the infinite growth paradigm and that the whole house of cards is gonna collapse into a world made by hand, it threatens their heavily-invested path through life in a big way. But if you feel that way, you feel that way and keeping it to yourself and providing cover stories I think is dysfunctional and works against the notion that we're supposed to build real community instead of these isolated lifeboats in a sea of future zombies. If you want to write off the neighbors, best go the mountain man road with the bugout bunker in no-man's land.