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The Witch Hunt Begins

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The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 05:13:57

Anyone who has received a bonus in the top echelon is concerned, and wouldn’t you be?” said Jeanne Branthover, the head of financial services recruiting at Boyden Global Executive Search. “This is a witch hunt.


NYT

It begins indeed. Andrew Cuomo won his legal battle to get the names of Merrill Lynch Pigmen who receved bonuses, and he is set to publish them Thursday. Regardless of the fact the AIG Pigmen are now getting DEATH THREATS.

It’s suddenly a crime to make money, it seems.


You bet it is. At least if the money you are making is coming from the taxpayer to pay you off for the money you lost running a trash company. How is it that people who work for a company that LOSES money by the truckload get PAID millions to lose BILLIONS? We aren't entitled to know who these Pigmen are?

Four Fannie Mae Execs are also scheduled to receive Million$ Bonus checks here next week, while FM continues to lose money by the bucketful. Anybody who ACCEPTS such money is a PIGMAN. We Taxpayers neded to know their NAMES. They are STEALING our MONEY. A witch hunt is not sufficient here. Its time for the INQUISITION. The Auto da Fe! Nothing less then the righteous Judgement of GOD will do here.

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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby AusJake » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 08:43:06

Let them have it.
The coming collapse will sort them out.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby Revi » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 08:48:57

These kinds of witch hunts never end well. Most of the AIG bonuses are being paid to people in London. One good thing is that we probably aren't going to give AIG any more bailout money, and they might even return the 30 bil they got recently.

Meanwhile the Fed just bought 750 bil worth of Fanny and Freddy's toxic assets and spent 250 bil on treasuries. Isn't that going to cause inflation soon, as the rest of the world catches on to the fact that we're buying our own debt?
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby mark » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 09:52:57

The civil war game plays on.
Who is John Galt?
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 09:59:38

Seems like it's a boys club; bankers and pollies.
Look at the ultra cushy retirement package guarantees the Guv give themselves.
I'm not sure about the USA but in a lot of countries these funds are separately guaranteed from the funds ordinarily available for retirement to the mug punters who vote for these clowns.
I can't see the Guv acting too harshly on these kettles as they are in fact themselves pots.
It will take a General Strike to demand and force action.
Government must be also made accountable by their future security being leveled to the pittance afforded ordinary workers. Until we have Government at the same state of threat as the people; we won't get proper prosecution of the Pigmen; because we are still being run by them.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby jupiters_release » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 13:31:27

ReverseEngineer wrote:How is it that people who work for a company that LOSES money by the truckload get PAID millions to lose BILLIONS? We aren't entitled to know who these Pigmen are?

Four Fannie Mae Execs are also scheduled to receive Million$ Bonus checks here next week, while FM continues to lose money by the bucketful. Anybody who ACCEPTS such money is a PIGMAN. We Taxpayers neded to know their NAMES. They are STEALING our MONEY. A witch hunt is not sufficient here. Its time for the INQUISITION. The Auto da Fe! Nothing less then the righteous Judgement of GOD will do here.

Reverse Engineer


One would expect this sort of response from the average american whom this public relations decoy was intended for. The sophistication level is akin to the media blaming terrorism on Al Qaeda, basically it's a little worrying that this stuff works on anyone above the age of a middle school kid, especially a member of this forum who has no excuse to not know who the real pigmen are. Cognitive dissonance and ego are directly proportional in size. Time to grow up RE.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby truecougarblue » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 13:39:03

Next they'll start trying to punish the shorts. Anybody here make money on SKF last year? I know I did.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 14:44:40

jupiters_release wrote:
ReverseEngineer wrote:How is it that people who work for a company that LOSES money by the truckload get PAID millions to lose BILLIONS? We aren't entitled to know who these Pigmen are?

Four Fannie Mae Execs are also scheduled to receive Million$ Bonus checks here next week, while FM continues to lose money by the bucketful. Anybody who ACCEPTS such money is a PIGMAN. We Taxpayers neded to know their NAMES. They are STEALING our MONEY. A witch hunt is not sufficient here. Its time for the INQUISITION. The Auto da Fe! Nothing less then the righteous Judgement of GOD will do here.

Reverse Engineer


One would expect this sort of response from the average american whom this public relations decoy was intended for. The sophistication level is akin to the media blaming terrorism on Al Qaeda, basically it's a little worrying that this stuff works on anyone above the age of a middle school kid, especially a member of this forum who has no excuse to not know who the real pigmen are. Cognitive dissonance and ego are directly proportional in size. Time to grow up RE.



What on earth are you talking about, JR? The bonuses symbolize the rampant theft and that is why so many are so transfixed by the subject and so angry.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 14:53:35

threadbear wrote:
What on earth are you talking about, JR? The bonuses symbolize the rampant theft and that is why so many are so transfixed by the subject and so angry.


Exactly. While compared to the Trillions being coughed up here and thrown into the wind by Helicopter Ben a few measely million in bonuses is chump change, the fact is this chump change is going directly to the individuals RESPONSIBLE for the mess. Its not diversionary, it IS the problem. Its symbolic of the inherent corruption of the system. Beyond that, you can't hold institutions accountable without holding the people who run them accountable. Of course the politicians also need to be held similarly accountable, but you work a layer at a time here. Nothing wrong with identifying the Pigmen, its necessary for the wheels of Justice to be set in motion.

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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 15:23:03

mark wrote:The civil war game plays on.



The civil war between the top 1% of wealth-owners in the population, and the 99% of the rest of us?

If not that civil war, then what civil war?
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby nobodypanic » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:08:38

jupiters_release wrote:
ReverseEngineer wrote:How is it that people who work for a company that LOSES money by the truckload get PAID millions to lose BILLIONS? We aren't entitled to know who these Pigmen are?

Four Fannie Mae Execs are also scheduled to receive Million$ Bonus checks here next week, while FM continues to lose money by the bucketful. Anybody who ACCEPTS such money is a PIGMAN. We Taxpayers neded to know their NAMES. They are STEALING our MONEY. A witch hunt is not sufficient here. Its time for the INQUISITION. The Auto da Fe! Nothing less then the righteous Judgement of GOD will do here.

Reverse Engineer


One would expect this sort of response from the average american whom this public relations decoy was intended for. The sophistication level is akin to the media blaming terrorism on Al Qaeda, basically it's a little worrying that this stuff works on anyone above the age of a middle school kid, especially a member of this forum who has no excuse to not know who the real pigmen are. Cognitive dissonance and ego are directly proportional in size. Time to grow up RE.

let's say for the sake of argument you're right. it's still a very dangerous game to play: it's like setting your neighbor's apartment who lives a few floors below you on fire in order to distract the mob gathering outside your building from yourself.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby jupiters_release » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:26:39

threadbear wrote:
jupiters_release wrote:
ReverseEngineer wrote:How is it that people who work for a company that LOSES money by the truckload get PAID millions to lose BILLIONS? We aren't entitled to know who these Pigmen are?

Four Fannie Mae Execs are also scheduled to receive Million$ Bonus checks here next week, while FM continues to lose money by the bucketful. Anybody who ACCEPTS such money is a PIGMAN. We Taxpayers neded to know their NAMES. They are STEALING our MONEY. A witch hunt is not sufficient here. Its time for the INQUISITION. The Auto da Fe! Nothing less then the righteous Judgement of GOD will do here.

Reverse Engineer


One would expect this sort of response from the average american whom this public relations decoy was intended for. The sophistication level is akin to the media blaming terrorism on Al Qaeda, basically it's a little worrying that this stuff works on anyone above the age of a middle school kid, especially a member of this forum who has no excuse to not know who the real pigmen are. Cognitive dissonance and ego are directly proportional in size. Time to grow up RE.



What on earth are you talking about, JR? The bonuses symbolize the rampant theft and that is why so many are so transfixed by the subject and so angry.


The bonuses are only 0.001% of the theft. It's better to go after the people who actually got 99.999% of the bailouts, but that would be impossible because that information is undisclosed, a 'threat to national security' according to the Fed.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:32:18

jupiters_release wrote:
The bonuses are only 0.001% of the theft. It's better to go after the people who actually got 99.999% of the bailouts, but that would be impossible because that information is undisclosed, a 'threat to national security' according to the Fed.


Before you get to the Generals, you have to take out the army below them.

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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby jupiters_release » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:33:13

ReverseEngineer wrote:
threadbear wrote:
What on earth are you talking about, JR? The bonuses symbolize the rampant theft and that is why so many are so transfixed by the subject and so angry.


Exactly. While compared to the Trillions being coughed up here and thrown into the wind by Helicopter Ben a few measely million in bonuses is chump change, the fact is this chump change is going directly to the individuals RESPONSIBLE for the mess. Its not diversionary, it IS the problem. Its symbolic of the inherent corruption of the system. Beyond that, you can't hold institutions accountable without holding the people who run them accountable. Of course the politicians also need to be held similarly accountable, but you work a layer at a time here. Nothing wrong with identifying the Pigmen, its necessary for the wheels of Justice to be set in motion.

Reverse Engineer


Your newspeak is getting tired. Trillions Into The WindTM is the same as the Black HoleTM and WMDTM. If you would quit repeating the bullshit on CNN, you'd figure out the bailout money's going to people.

The people getting the bonuses are only responsible for taking the heat.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:37:00

jupiters_release wrote: If you would quit repeating the bullshit on CNN, you'd figure out the bailout money's going to people.


I don't watch CNN. I don't own a TV.

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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby jupiters_release » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:37:22

ReverseEngineer wrote:
jupiters_release wrote:
The bonuses are only 0.001% of the theft. It's better to go after the people who actually got 99.999% of the bailouts, but that would be impossible because that information is undisclosed, a 'threat to national security' according to the Fed.


Before you get to the Generals, you have to take out the army below them.

Reverse Engineer


This ain't a game of Dungeons and Dragons or Axis and Allies or Risk or whatever else you romanticize about.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:38:32

jupiters_release wrote:
This ain't a game of Dungeons and Dragons or Axis and Allies or Risk or whatever else you romanticize about.


Its a metaphor.

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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby jupiters_release » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 16:40:09

ReverseEngineer wrote:
jupiters_release wrote: If you would quit repeating the bullshit on CNN, you'd figure out the bailout money's going to people.


I don't watch CNN. I don't own a TV.

Reverse Engineer


Semantics will get you nowhere either.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 17:20:21

Ludi wrote:
mark wrote:The civil war game plays on.



The civil war between the top 1% of wealth-owners in the population, and the 99% of the rest of us?

If not that civil war, then what civil war?


Technically, that's a revolution, I think.
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Re: The Witch Hunt Begins

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 17:27:02

Stolden from seahorse. :lol:
The belief that the wealthy are worthy is waning
With financial crisis and scandal as backdrop, Americans are questioning whether plutocrats are either indispensable or deserving.
Michael Hiltzik
March 19, 2009
The notion that the poor always will be with us has been ingrained in our culture ever since the sermons of Moses were set down by the anonymous author of Deuteronomy.

The financial crisis of the present day raises a rather different issue, however: What should we do about the rich?



Comment on this column: Is it time to soak the rich?
That the point is even open for discussion suggests that a sea change is taking place on the American political scene. For decades, the wealthy have been held up as people to be admired, victors in the Darwinian economic struggle by virtue of their personal ingenuity and hard work.

Americans consistently supported fiscal policies that undermined middle- and working-class interests partially because they saw themselves as rich-people-in-waiting: Given time, toil and the magic of compound interest, anyone could retire a millionaire.

That mind-set has all but been eradicated by the damage sustained by the average worker's nest egg, combined with the spectacle of bankers and financial engineers maintaining their lifestyles with multimillion-dollar bonuses while the submerged 99% struggle for oxygen.

(The price of admission to the top 1% income-earning club last year was roughly $400,000.) That may account for the near-total absence of public outcry over President Obama's proposal to raise tax rates on the wealthiest Americans -- except of course from the wealthiest Americans.

One factor fueling the public fury over the AIG bonuses, so inescapably in the news this week, is the recognition that so many huge fortunes landed in the hands of the undeserving rich. Some of them added little value to the economy but merely moved money around in novel, excessively clever and ultimately destructive ways; others are corporate executives who were ridiculously overpaid whether they succeeded or failed at their jobs.

It won't be long now, moreover, before Americans again wise up to the role of dumb luck in building wealth. By my count, roughly one-quarter of the names on the Forbes list of the 400 richest Americans got there by inheritance (and by no means have all of them enhanced the family fortune with their own toil or brainpower). A few years ago, it was common to think of the rich as a special breed. We may soon come around to George Orwell's view that the only difference between rich and poor is income -- "The average millionaire," as he put it, "is only the average dishwasher dressed in a new suit."

The shift in sentiment should surprise no one. As the management sage Peter Drucker once predicted, "In the next economic downturn there will be an outbreak of bitterness and contempt for the super-corporate chieftains who pay themselves millions. In every major economic downturn in U.S. history the 'villains' have been the 'heroes' during the preceding boom." Drucker was speaking in 1997, two downturns ago.

This brings us to a couple of questions certain to become more pressing as we stagger through the fiscal and economic hangover from the Roaring Oughty-Oughts: How much does our economy depend on the rich, anyway, and why shouldn't we soak them good?

A bit of history will be useful here. The original case for a progressive income tax -- that is, one levied disproportionately on larger incomes -- was based less on raising revenue for the state than breaking up concentrations of wealth, inherited and otherwise. The nation's Founding Fathers considered these to be undemocratic -- markers of "an aristocratic society, not a free and virtuous republic," as the tax-law expert Dennis Ventry has written.

Recent events validate the Founders' instincts. The craze for financial deregulation in Washington was fomented in part by Wall Street plutocrats brandishing lavish political donations, gifts, offers of employment and other trappings of economic power. Would Wall Street have gotten so far out of control if it had had less power to wield? No one can know for sure, but it's a question worth pondering.

There's also a social value in suppressing income inequality. In a country with only a slightly less ingrained tradition of civility than the United States, the AIG affair would provoke rioting in the streets.

"We live in a country with tranquillity and good feelings toward each other, and that's precious," says Robert Shiller, a Yale University economist and coauthor of "Animal Spirits," a new book about the psychology of economics. In the current crisis, "there's anger and a sense of injustice taking hold, and it's not in the interest of wealthy people -- you don't want people on the poor side of town to be angry with you."

By the way, maintaining the civic institutions, police forces and public infrastructure that enable great fortunes to be made and kept costs money. Wealthy taxpayers should keep that in mind the next time they're inclined to bellyache about not getting anything from government.

As a rationale for progressive taxation, the concept of regulation and redistribution eventually yielded to the quest for revenue. Taxing large incomes was justified because that's where the money is, and, secondarily, a rich person suffers less in giving up a dollar than does a poor one.

The inflection point was the Roosevelt administration. FDR kept talking about the justice of chipping away at "great accumulations of wealth," but he also needed the money. The overall average tax bite on the richest Americans reached its high-water mark of nearly 59% during World War II.

After that, even though marginal rates (the amounts charged on the last dollars) remained as high as 91%, the average tax bite on the rich fell to as little as 25% in the early '60s, largely the result of their skill in exploiting loopholes. Starting with Ronald Reagan, federal income tax policy came to focus mostly on finding the rate that could produce the most revenue while provoking the minimum squawking from the wealthy chickens being plucked.

Those squawks sometimes take the form of a claim that too much taxation saps the economic value of the wealthy -- their capacity to invest, to create jobs, etc. It's proper to note that years of study have unearthed no consistent evidence that taxation causes the rich to alter their investing behavior much, at least not until their tax burden reaches a point vastly higher than what Obama contemplates.

"The real rich -- the top 1% -- work very hard for reasons other than money," Reuven S. Avi-Yonah, a tax historian at the University of Michigan, told me this week. The quest for prestige, political power and self-esteem, the ability to control things and people, are all factors in their behavior.

Thanks to the financial crisis, those goals are regarded with increasing hostility by the political establishment. Certainly the claim of the rich to play an indispensable role in the American economy will be treated with more skepticism than in the recent past, and their ability to preserve their loopholes and other advantages in the tax code will diminish.

Will the economy suffer as a result? The experiment is about to begin.

Michael Hiltzik's column appears Mondays and Thursdays. Reach him at [email protected] and read his previous columns at www.latimes.com/hiltzik.


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-h ... 773.column
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