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The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

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The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 11:07:22

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Massive investment in renewable energy could ultimately create 4 million manufacturing jobs. But for the workers in the bottom rung of this movement, the shift to green jobs could very well mean a pay cut of nearly 60%, a trend spreading across the entire manufacturing sector.

Many of the entry-level jobs making green energy components start at $12 an hour, much less than the now extinct $28 an hour job that had allowed high school-educated workers in the auto sector to achieve middle class status.

"Particularly at the lower end, these are not very good jobs," said Philip Mattera, research director at Good Jobs First, a labor-friendly research group, also acknowledging that the renewable energy sector paid wages that were "all over the map."

Talkback: Is $12 an hour a decent wage?
Americans are betting that molding steel wind turbines, slicing silicon for solar panels and making batteries for electric cars will put them back on top of the manufacturing game. The 4 million new jobs, estimated by the University of California, Berkeley, would bring back more than half of all the manufacturing jobs lost in this country since the sector's heyday in the late 1970s.

At a battery plant just outside Indianapolis, job growth could boom. The plant is owned by EnerDel, the car battery division of Ener1. Here, the company is racing to build a cost competitive battery for an all-electric car. If it gets a government loan it's applying for, the company plans on hiring up to 3,000 people. That's roughly what a big auto plant employs.

But $12 an hour is the starting wage for a production worker.

While the starting wages at EnerDel are lower than what the auto industry pays, company executives stressed salaries go up quickly as skill sets improve. They also stressed a company like EnerDel employs lots of skilled workers too, from the electrical engineers needed to design the batteries to the mechanical engineers who build the machines.

A level pay scale. The diversity of jobs in the renewable energy business is one thing supporters of green manufacturing tout. They say people should look beyond the starting wages for labor when judging the industry.

"I cannot think of an industry that has more diversity in wages," said Jackie Roberts, director of sustainable technology at the Environmental Defense Fund.

Plus, $12 an hour is in-line with the average wage for an electronics assembler in the Indianapolis area, according to the Labor Department.

It's a similar scene at a plant making silicon for solar panels up in Michigan. Just outside of Saginaw, an executive at Hemlock Semiconductor would only say the company paid "competitive wages."

But people in town said the non-union Hemlock plant paid around $10 an hour for unskilled production workers and $20 an hour for skilled ones.

Mike Hanley, president of the local United Auto Workers union, said he hoped green manufacturing will become more unionized going forward. But he agreed that the wages at Hemlock were pretty good for the area.

Not just green industry. Environmental Defense's Roberts notes that besides new companies making things specifically for the renewable energy business, as is the case with EnerDel, there are also lots of manufacturing firms that make components for both the green and traditional industries.

"There are manufacturing jobs," she said. "They have the same wages as anyone making components for any other industry."

That's the case in Minster, Ohio, where the Minster Machine Company turns out both parts for wind turbines as well as machines for other the auto and food processing industries.

0:00 /2:25Building windmills in Rust Belt
Inside the company's massive iron foundry, workers start at $17.50 and hour whether they are pouring castings for a wind turbine hub or an auto stamping machine.

But the company's president, John Winch, noted that in the long run, wages in the U.S. will probably come down as wages in the developing world come up - all part of the globalization process.

"The wage scale will probably be more dependent on what the world's wage scale is," said Winch.

Even in the auto industry, $28-an-hour is no longer the starting wage. Since 2007 the industry has had a two-tier wage system, meaning that when they start hiring again the new starting wage will be $14 an hour.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/04/news/economy/green_jobs/index.htm

So it turns out this new "green jobs will save us" thing is really just about the unemployed being lucky to get a job paying $10-12 per hour.
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 11:16:10

It has not been that long since I was making that much. For around here it would not be that bad... not as much as some places but a whole lot more than some people made their whole lives. I have one neighbor who sold his labor his whole life... topped out at 10 an hour right before retirement.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby hillsidedigger » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 11:23:53

Yet in Mexico (even without safe, clean working conditions, insurance, retirement or the other benefits), workers are lined up by the millions and happy to get the equivalent of $2 per hour, in China, lined up by the tens of millions, happy to get 50 cents per hour.

$12 per hour is enough for a couple with one child to survive quite well although not enough to have 3 large vehicles, live in a large house way out in the country 50 miles from the job-site, have a second home or an expensive motor boat or take very expensive vacations every year,
Last edited by hillsidedigger on Sat 06 Jun 2009, 11:28:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 11:27:44

Does this mean college grad's will start out at $13.00 hour?
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby MarkJ » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:00:37

With so many local manufacturing jobs lost due to offshoring, outsourcing, automation, robotics, computerization and other productivity increasing technology, many local unskilled & semi skilled workers without a college degree, technical degree or professional license would consider themselves lucky to find a $10 to $12 per hour job.



BP Solar is Laying off 620, Outsourcing Panel Manufacturing

The company is closing a panel assembly factory in the United States and one in Spain. BP also plans to outsource panel production to others. This cost-cutting move is becoming trendy.

"We are negotiating now with potential global suppliers who can provide us with high volume and high quality module assembly from regional manufacturing centers," said Tom Mueller, a BP Solar spokesman.

Mueller declined to name these contract manufacturers, saying negotiations with the companies are still taking place. Some of these partners could likely be Asian companies that can keep manufacturing costs low. BP canceled a $97 million plan to expand its ingot production center in Maryland last year mainly because of the growing competition from Asian companies

Besides making its own silicon wafers and solar cells, BP has inked deals to buy those components from other companies. It's buying wafers from China-based ReneSola and solar cells from JA Solar, which is headquartered in China."

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/ ... ring-5981/
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby Caffeine » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:10:45

hillsidedigger wrote:Yet in Mexico (even without safe, clean working conditions, insurance, retirement or the other benefits), workers are lined up by the millions and happy to get the equivalent of $2 per hour, in China, lined up by the tens of millions, happy to get 50 cents per hour.


What is the cost of rent for a one-bedroom apartment (or equivalent basic housing) in Mexico, or China, by comparison? How about the cost of food, utilities, transportation?
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:13:30

Caffeine wrote:
hillsidedigger wrote:Yet in Mexico (even without safe, clean working conditions, insurance, retirement or the other benefits), workers are lined up by the millions and happy to get the equivalent of $2 per hour, in China, lined up by the tens of millions, happy to get 50 cents per hour.


What is the cost of rent for a one-bedroom apartment (or equivalent basic housing) in Mexico, or China, by comparison? How about the cost of food, utilities, transportation?


Those will also have to decrease (or be used less) because people will not be able to afford them at current prices.

I think it is called, "deflation"
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:15:49

wisconsin_cur wrote:
Caffeine wrote:
hillsidedigger wrote:Yet in Mexico (even without safe, clean working conditions, insurance, retirement or the other benefits), workers are lined up by the millions and happy to get the equivalent of $2 per hour, in China, lined up by the tens of millions, happy to get 50 cents per hour.


What is the cost of rent for a one-bedroom apartment (or equivalent basic housing) in Mexico, or China, by comparison? How about the cost of food, utilities, transportation?


Those will also have to decrease (or be used less) because people will not be able to afford them at current prices.

I think it is called, "deflation"


I couldn't make it on $12.80 back in 1990.

I quit that scab outfit an got me a nice union government job instead. :)
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby Caffeine » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:22:21

wisconsin_cur wrote:
Caffeine wrote:
hillsidedigger wrote:Yet in Mexico (even without safe, clean working conditions, insurance, retirement or the other benefits), workers are lined up by the millions and happy to get the equivalent of $2 per hour, in China, lined up by the tens of millions, happy to get 50 cents per hour.


What is the cost of rent for a one-bedroom apartment (or equivalent basic housing) in Mexico, or China, by comparison? How about the cost of food, utilities, transportation?


Those will also have to decrease (or be used less) because people will not be able to afford them at current prices.

I think it is called, "deflation"


Perhaps the cost of living in the United States is grossly overinflated. It would be nice if this were to change, but... I doubt it.
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:26:33

vision-master wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Caffeine wrote:
hillsidedigger wrote:Yet in Mexico (even without safe, clean working conditions, insurance, retirement or the other benefits), workers are lined up by the millions and happy to get the equivalent of $2 per hour, in China, lined up by the tens of millions, happy to get 50 cents per hour.


What is the cost of rent for a one-bedroom apartment (or equivalent basic housing) in Mexico, or China, by comparison? How about the cost of food, utilities, transportation?


Those will also have to decrease (or be used less) because people will not be able to afford them at current prices.

I think it is called, "deflation"


I couldn't make it on $12.80 back in 1990.

I quit that scab outfit an got me a nice union government job instead. :)


In 1994-6 I made it on min wage and the left over food that the illegal dishwasher and I kept from going into the dumpster. In 1997 I made it on 7.00 an hour. By 2001 I worked my way up to 12.00 an hour and felt I was living pretty well.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:32:22

The point of this article is that we're losing the last few manufacturing jobs that could provide a middle class life. These autoworkers used to make $28 an hour (counting benefits). That nickel and dimed down to $14 per hour average. And now those jobs are going too, and we're left with even lower paying "green" jobs.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:38:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby Caffeine » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:35:26

wisconsin_cur wrote:In 1994-6 I made it on min wage and the left over food that the illegal dishwasher and I kept from going into the dumpster. In 1997 I made it on 7.00 an hour. By 2001 I worked my way up to 12.00 an hour and felt I was living pretty well.


How much rent were you paying monthly? How many (working) roommates did you have?

Back to China/Mexico: If you get sick in either country and (for example) need to get an antibiotic, or break a bone, or have some (comparatively basic) medical problem, how much money does it cost to get health care there? (Not necessarily state-of-the-art medical care, but basic, competent care.)
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby MarkJ » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:40:58

Robert Reich thinks it's great news that human jobs are being eliminated.


Manufacturing Jobs Are Never Coming Back

Robert B. Reich, 05.28.09, 06:00 PM EDT

Increasingly, machines make things, not people--and that should be great news for the U.S.


It doesn't make sense for America to try to enlarge manufacturing as a portion of the economy. Even if the U.S. were to seal its borders and bar any manufactured goods from coming in from abroad--something I don't recommend--we'd still be losing manufacturing jobs. That's mainly because of technology.

When we think of manufacturing jobs, we tend to imagine old-time assembly lines populated by millions of blue-collar workers who had well-paying jobs with good benefits. But that picture no longer describes most manufacturing. I recently toured a U.S. factory containing two employees and 400 computerized robots. The two live people sat in front of computer screens and instructed the robots. In a few years this factory won't have a single employee on site, except for an occasional visiting technician who repairs and upgrades the robots.


Factory jobs are vanishing all over the world. Even China is losing them. The Chinese are doing more manufacturing than ever, but they're also becoming far more efficient at it. They've shuttered most of the old state-run factories. Their new factories are chock full of automated and computerized machines. As a result, they don't need as many manufacturing workers as before.

The nations with the highest percentages of their working populations doing symbolic-analytic tasks will have the highest standard of living and be the most competitive internationally. America's biggest challenge is to educate more of our people sufficiently to excel at them. We do remarkably well with the children from relatively affluent families. Our universities are the envy of the world. Entire regions specialize in one or another kind of symbolic analytic work--Los Angeles for music and film, Silicon Valley for software and the Internet, greater Boston for bio-medical engineering, and New York, until recently, for finance.

But we're in danger of losing ground because too many of our kids, especially those from lower-middle class and poor families, can't get the education they need. They're getting low-paid jobs in the local service economy--in retail stores, restaurant outlets, hotels and hospitals.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/28/robert ... onomy.html
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:45:14

Caffeine wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:In 1994-6 I made it on min wage and the left over food that the illegal dishwasher and I kept from going into the dumpster. In 1997 I made it on 7.00 an hour. By 2001 I worked my way up to 12.00 an hour and felt I was living pretty well.


How much rent were you paying monthly? How many (working) roommates did you have?

Back to China/Mexico: If you get sick in either country and (for example) need to get an antibiotic, or break a bone, or have some (comparatively basic) medical problem, how much money does it cost to get health care there? (Not necessarily state-of-the-art medical care, but basic, competent care.)


Exactly my point.

There seems to be a consensus on this board that we need to learn to start living with less.

Welcome to a life of living with less.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby Caffeine » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 12:55:30

wisconsin_cur wrote:
Exactly my point.

There seems to be a consensus on this board that we need to learn to start living with less.

Welcome to a life of living with less.


Let me give a few more examples to try to illustrate my point. If a lot of Americans decide to try living in tents, or log cabins, or various other forms of shelter that they can afford, rather than grossly overpriced rents or housing-bubble mortgages, they will most likely to be told to "move on" to the next town, or (if they have children) CPS will take their kids away. They may also have their possessions taken away from them.

I could use a clothesline rather than a dryer, but in various parts of the United States, it is actually not legal to use a clothesline. Similar deal with raising chickens for eggs in many areas.

A person who lives in Cuba can actually get medical care at a very decent price. Cuba is an island with much more limited physical resources than the US. How come 60 percent of recent bankruptcies in the United States are due to medical bills? Why is that?
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 14:50:51

Yup clotheslines are illegal here.
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby JJ » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 15:11:56

wisconsin_cur wrote:It has not been that long since I was making that much. For around here it would not be that bad... not as much as some places but a whole lot more than some people made their whole lives. I have one neighbor who sold his labor his whole life... topped out at 10 an hour right before retirement.


wow. I'm 50 years old. I make 13.75 an hour, probably the most I've ever made in my life. I have five weeks paid vacation, full medical for my family (brain surgery was 248,000., my co-pay was 100.) Kid broke his leg in nine places playing basketball at the high school, school didn't pay anything by my work paid 50,000. for three surgeries. Childbirth is "free, we don't care how the baby comes out". Full dental, vision. Half a million accidental death and term life for myself, 50,000 for the other family members. (I have a 401k...snicker...) anyway, the point I'm trying to make is we do ok; we bought a first-time homeowners plan house (fixer-upper special) 12 years ago for 203. a month (2200 square feet, its a duplex which we joined)...I'm sure we as Americans have a LOT of fat we can cut.
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby jasonraymondson » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 16:15:19

I use to live comfortably just 8 years ago on 9 dollars an hour.

But, that really isn't the point. In midwest (unless you go into the bigger cities) a person can live pretty decent on $12.00, this is $480 a week before taxes on a 40 hour work week, or ~ $25,000 per year.

The problem, is that most of these people are living in big cities or in parts of the country where rent in 1000 and up a month. In springfield mo, with a 150,000 population you can find a decent place to lease for 500 a month.

This is what scares me though... as the big cities become to expensive... more and more will move to the midwest raising prices down here up as well.

http://www.sutliverealestate.com/Sutliv ... ndex.shtml

In my hometown you can rent an entire 2 bedroom house for $300 a month
Last edited by jasonraymondson on Sat 06 Jun 2009, 16:20:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby Caffeine » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 16:19:32

jasonraymondson wrote:The problem, is that most of these people are living in big cities or in parts of the country where rent in 1000 and up a month. In springfield mo, with a 150,000 population you can find a decent place to lease for 500 a month.


Maybe I should move. :-D
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Re: The new 'good' job: 12 bucks an hour

Unread postby jasonraymondson » Sat 06 Jun 2009, 16:25:26

These are up near my hometown

http://keokukareamls.rapmls.com/scripts ... D&KeyRid=1

less than 30,000 for a three bedroom house.

of course one tiny caveat... there are no jobs in my hometown and surounding area. none, unless you want to work in a factory for 8 - 9 an hour

but, if your work consists of just running websites or simiar work that doesn't require you to be near civilization, it sure is peaceful most of the time. Just be careful around mule fest and blue grass season.

In Keokuk, steel castings is currently hiring for 7.95 an hour for 3rd shift.

Of course they are always hiring because no one can survive the constant 130 degree heat and the giant columns of flames that run across the ceiling.
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