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Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Jun 2009, 19:01:56

Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

YES, says Matthew R. Simmons, founder of Simmons International:

"Many supposed energy experts refute peak oil, and mistakenly think the term means that we are running out of oil. Peak Oil does not mean "running out of oil". The world will likely never run out of oil, but the flow of usable oil has almost certainly already passed its high-water mark. Over the next five to ten years, our current oil supply will likely decline by as much as 15 to 25 per cent. In the meantime, despite the recent recession fears, the world's planned use of more oil is staggering.

NO, says Peter Odell, professor-emeritus of international energy studies, Erasmus University:

"Claimants for a near future peak in global oil production fail to recognise the processes whereby reserves and production evolve. They equally avoid the central role played by both economics and politics in equilibriating the markets.

The world's currently proven and potential reserves of oil - both conventional and non-conventional - eliminate any significant up-side restraints on the growth of production . On the contrary, near future constraints on oil supplies will be imposed by slow demand growth (of no more than 1.5% per annum).Thereafter, the eventual continuation of a steadily increasing supply of oil for global use will be based on the present creation and future maintenance of a 40-plus years' reserves-to-production ratio.


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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby TheDude » Tue 23 Jun 2009, 20:32:49

On the contrary, near future constraints on oil supplies will be imposed by slow demand growth (of no more than 1.5% per annum).


The median for 2001-2008 was 0.5%.

Will tear this apart a bit more later. Usual reserves growth horse hockey.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 23 Jun 2009, 21:29:50

Considering we have been pumping oil much faster than we have been finding it for decades and the only 'reserve growth' I see offsetting that consumption are the paper barrels of the Middle East I think someone has well and truly drunk the Kool-aide
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby DantesPeak » Tue 23 Jun 2009, 21:36:37

Claimants for a near future peak in global oil production fail to recognise the processes whereby reserves and production evolve. They equally avoid the central role played by both economics and politics in equilibriating the markets.


Seems like the good professor has also failed to understand economics and politics by failing to realize that oil quality is declining and harder to extract, and new oil is mostly found in unfriendly political places.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Tue 23 Jun 2009, 21:51:59

Graeme wrote:Do you believe in 'peak oil'?


"Claimants for a near future peak in global oil production fail to recognise the processes whereby reserves and production evolve. They equally avoid the central role played by both economics and politics in equilibriating the markets.



Huh?

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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Ferretlover » Tue 23 Jun 2009, 22:04:32

Looks like Pete Odell is in the lead for the position of "We are saved!" thread management.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby hardtootell-2 » Tue 23 Jun 2009, 22:30:13

I used to be worried until I learned about this miracle of "intelligent design":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Narz » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 03:45:24

Graeme wrote:Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Well I sure don't come here for my health. :wink: :lol:
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby hironegro » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 06:21:52

Obivously, oil being a finite resource and such. Yet, I believe in the reality of resource depletion as whole will shape our lives in shocking manner.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 10:31:30

DantesPeak wrote:Seems like the good professor has also failed to understand economics and politics by failing to realize that oil quality is declining and harder to extract, and new oil is mostly found in unfriendly political places.

I wonder what it means when the argument "for" PO becomes simpler than all those against?
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby stu » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 12:15:24

If only the headline of the article was more focused on the fact that a peak WILL occur at some point instead of categorizing it alongside the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby eXpat » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 12:23:32

Narz wrote:
Graeme wrote:Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Well I sure don't come here for my health. :wink: :lol:

I´m here for the free drinks and the scantily dressed girls :P 8)
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 21:16:04

The title question is silly because of the verb. Of course peak oil will occur and oil is finite as pointed out respectively by stu and hironegro. Odell also agrees that PO will occur. Simmons on the hand says that PO has already occurred in 2005 so there is still confusion about the timing. From what I can gather, PO will mostly likely occur around 2020. Does anyone object?

The other point of confusion is shape of down slope of the hubbert curve. Will it be bell-shaped? Or will there be a plateau of some sort before the decline? If there is a plateau, how long will it be? How rapid will the decline be? I don't think that anyone can tell us with certainty what the shape will be because of factors too numerous to list in 5 minutes while I'm typing here. Some were mentioned in the opening statement by Odell, namely reserves growth, demand, economics, politics and expansion of renewables. So at least in one sense, I agree with Odell. PO has not occurred yet.
Last edited by Graeme on Thu 25 Jun 2009, 17:35:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby kiwichick » Thu 25 Jun 2009, 08:57:44

peak; 2004 - 2008

but the real problem is we should have been
moving away from oil 20 years ago

this will be uging fugly !!
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby jasonraymondson » Thu 25 Jun 2009, 09:01:37

Of course I believe in peak oil, hell I know it.

but it doesn't matter, as we consume more and more the price will get higher and higher, until it gets to high to buy, We will never run out of oil, but we will run out of the ability to buy oil.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Ayoob » Thu 25 Jun 2009, 09:50:23

jasonraymondson wrote:Of course I believe in peak oil, hell I know it.

but it doesn't matter, as we consume more and more the price will get higher and higher, until it gets to high to buy, We will never run out of oil, but we will run out of the ability to buy oil.


Purely an economic peak, no geology involved?
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 25 Jun 2009, 17:28:50

Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum extraction is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal decline.


The price of oil is not mentioned in the definition.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
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Re: Do you believe in 'peak oil'?

Unread postby energyhoggin » Wed 01 Jul 2009, 00:43:20

yea but I'm kinda skeptical about the ramifications some people are predicting, i see in the near future nothing but motorcycles and so on probably even mopeds or even bikes with small engines attached to the wheel,im already seeing more motorcycles on road. We will be forced into this lifestyle like so many European and poor countries do already, the rich will run us poor folks over in their huge four bangers.. i don't think there will be an economic hell because the price of oil will slowly rise over the long run due to economic recessions and recovery cycles with each cycle worse than the one before, sure i believe we are almost there but we will just have to adapt to high energy cost.

the system will evolve into something like below;

SUV or extremely large pickup truck with four doors enough room for five families
luxury car or roomy pickup "extended cab"
mid size car or pickup "six cylinder"
pinto type or economy car "4 cylinder" earlier type of Toyota pickup,"small truck in these days"
hybridization electric/gas
Geo metro type car "3 banger/hybrid"
???????
motorcycle
moped
gas powered bicycle
scooter
gas powered skates
horse, whoever is lucky enough
bicycle
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