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NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: EPA plans to spend $2.2 billion on Great Lakes

Unread postby Mudpuppy » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 01:36:23

I'd be interested to know what the plans are as far as "fighting invasive species such as Asian carp" is concerned. Koi carp were released by some moron into the waterways here in New Zealand years ago, and are an absolute bastard- they're fast breeding, eliminate competing species and foul the water due to their habit of burrowing and thrashing around in river and creek banks. And they taste like mud.


I know what you mean. I am a Kiwi who was used to the Koi carp problem from waterways where I grew up. Now I live in Japan where Koi are prized, but even here they make a mess out of waterways by churning them up.

However just one note about eating them. It is true that if you eat them straight out of the river they taste like mud. However they are actually really nice to eat and the flesh is quite sweet. But they must be prepared properly first. This involves taking the fish out of the river/lake and keeping it alive in a tank or pond with little soil or mud for substrate. After around 4 - 5 days of this clean water all of the muddy taste has been excreted from the flesh. The result is considered a delicacy in many places. I have had a few times. A lot of work mind you.
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Re: EPA plans to spend $2.2 billion on Great Lakes

Unread postby yeahbut » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 15:36:55

Mudpuppy wrote:However just one note about eating Koi. It is true that if you eat them straight out of the river they taste like mud. However they are actually really nice to eat and the flesh is quite sweet. But they must be prepared properly first. This involves taking the fish out of the river/lake and keeping it alive in a tank or pond with little soil or mud for substrate. After around 4 - 5 days of this clean water all of the muddy taste has been excreted from the flesh. The result is considered a delicacy in many places. I have had a few times. A lot of work mind you.


That's really interesting mp, I had no idea they were edible. That's very good news actually because unlike the EPA in the US and DOC in NZ , I think it's important to be realistic about exotic plants and animals in the wild and acknowledge that they are here to stay. If we are lucky enough that an invasive species has practical uses, we should just be thankful and try and make use of them. That's the only viable long term control- human predation. We do have an excellent record of depleting/eliminating our fellow animal and plant species after all- we just need to focus that remorseless energy a bit!

In the future I feel sure that people will scratch their heads trying to figure out why such phenomenal sums of money were spent in NZ attempting to eliminate useful sources of food, fur and wood like blackberries and loquats, possums and wilding pines. I'm sure there are any number of comparable examples in the US. It's stupid, wasteful, and it won't work . As for the other work being proposed, it sounds good to me and I'm sure it is a miniscule drop in the ocean compared to the amounts spent on foreign wars and bank bailouts.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 26 Jul 2010, 20:49:37

Ok this is bizarre, after an hour searching for this thread I gave up, and suddenly the thread shows up in the forum. Either someone fixed something or the software is playing with my head.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby americandream » Mon 26 Jul 2010, 21:24:06

Farming doesn't work that way nor do farmers. Vineyards are busted in Marlborough due to the bubble mentality of the townies who set up in haste only to regret at leisure. In contrast, local farmers stayed put in what they knew stood the test of time.

kiwichick wrote:NZ farmers will very quickly move to where the money is

bet on it !!!
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 27 Jul 2010, 05:07:52

Tanada wrote:
Too bad the Possum is from the America's and is not strongly used in Chinese medicine. The way I understand it demand is so high for animal ingredients of some traditional medicines that the supply species are threatened with harvesting to extinction.


Speaking of which there are only 8 Northern White Rhinos left, with only 2 fertile females. Get involved now or do not regret later.

http://www.northernwhiterhinolastchance.com/
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 27 Jul 2010, 06:27:34

Pretorian wrote:
Tanada wrote:
Too bad the Possum is from the America's and is not strongly used in Chinese medicine. The way I understand it demand is so high for animal ingredients of some traditional medicines that the supply species are threatened with harvesting to extinction.


Speaking of which there are only 8 Northern White Rhinos left, with only 2 fertile females. Get involved now or do not regret later.

http://www.northernwhiterhinolastchance.com/


With that small of a population base you better hope there are DNA samples of many more and that cloning technology actually works out to allow for recreation of those lines, otherwise the genetic bottleneck is so tight that they survivors are all vulnerable to a single event.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby americandream » Tue 27 Jul 2010, 06:55:40

Wasted effort. You can't DNA back species killed off for commercial gain. If it salves your conscience, you can stash a few away in cages. Better still, dump capitalism and remove the basis for commercial gain. If there's no market in animals parts etc, folks will leave them alone. As it is, fat cats are driving these markets for trophies and extended performance in the sack.

Tanada wrote:
Pretorian wrote:
Tanada wrote:
Too bad the Possum is from the America's and is not strongly used in Chinese medicine. The way I understand it demand is so high for animal ingredients of some traditional medicines that the supply species are threatened with harvesting to extinction.


Speaking of which there are only 8 Northern White Rhinos left, with only 2 fertile females. Get involved now or do not regret later.

http://www.northernwhiterhinolastchance.com/


With that small of a population base you better hope there are DNA samples of many more and that cloning technology actually works out to allow for recreation of those lines, otherwise the genetic bottleneck is so tight that they survivors are all vulnerable to a single event.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 27 Jul 2010, 07:11:49

What about species driven to extinction by hungry people who are willing to eat anything with calories in it to survive AD?
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby americandream » Tue 27 Jul 2010, 07:28:39

The fat cats will fund the extinction of species in two ways:

1 Through their own wants;

2 By ravaging territories and triggering the process you described (Some rich Australian tycoons died in a plane crash in one of the worlds poorest but resource rich countries recently).

Either way, whole families of species are destined for the history books. Don't waste your time getting sentimental. Change the system and remove the root causes. Resist and you and your planet dies.

Tanada wrote:What about species driven to extinction by hungry people who are willing to eat anything with calories in it to survive AD?
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Timo » Tue 27 Jul 2010, 15:49:41

I hate to say it, Tanada, but the situation you describe, albeit true and prevalent all around the world, in my view is a reflection of over population and the progress of industrialized society past the hunting/gathering stage, which, in reality, is likely the only true survival method for humanity as a species. I know that sounds crass and pathetic, and i do not mean it to come across in such a cold manner. I'm not endorsing the status quo. The human rational me feels that there should be some means by which humanity can live with and preserve all the creatures who share this planet with us. Unfortunately, as opposed to hunting and gathering in the ancient sense, millions of people today are forced into that situation because they lack the keys to the city where the rest of us live. Additionally, over population means that more food is required, which means that some people simply live outside the "civilized" accepted norm with healthy access to what we all need to survive. Human civilization is an oxymoron, when you think about it. Sorry to be so blunt, but i think that's the unfortunate reality we all live in.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby yeahbut » Tue 27 Jul 2010, 15:53:23

Pretorian wrote:
Tanada wrote:
Too bad the Possum is from the America's and is not strongly used in Chinese medicine. The way I understand it demand is so high for animal ingredients of some traditional medicines that the supply species are threatened with harvesting to extinction.


Speaking of which there are only 8 Northern White Rhinos left, with only 2 fertile females. Get involved now or do not regret later.

http://www.northernwhiterhinolastchance.com/


Yep, there is still hope while there are fertile females. In 1980, there was one female left of the New Zealand Chatham Islands black robin, five birds in total in existence. There are about 200 now. It can be done, but in the long term you have to wonder what the implications for their genetics are. And of course in the case of the rhino, all the pressures that have brought them to this point are still going to be there- rich people who want the product, and poor people who want the money.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 12 Nov 2019, 15:44:23

Tanada wrote:{On Sun 09 Jul 2017}Plant reproduction is based on producing thousands of seeds with the expectation that one or two will germinate and survive long enough to reproduce. An updraft thunderstorm can pick up billions of seeds at a time and carry them along until it loses energy, scattering seeds, dropping some and picking up others as it travels. The tree line hasn't moved very far north yet because the climate is not warm enough to support trees. However as soon as the climate will support trees that will change.
IIRC you live in New Zealand? A few years back I posted about the crazy attempts to eliminate invasive pine tree species from New Zealand, which is currently a high tech battle against nature. None of the types of trees in question were native to New Zealand, and yet because the environment is ideal for them their seeds are colonizing new areas very rapidly. This scares the daylights out of some so called environmentalists who convinced the government of your country to 'fight the invasive species' leading to very large sums of money being spent on public lands. However the trees on private lands are private property and every year they release millions of seeds that wind and birds scatter into areas those threes can grow and prosper. This makes the battle against the invasives nothing but a stalling tactic, sooner or later the government will either run out of money or just give up and when that happens those suitable public lands will become public forest lands. In Denali national Park, Alaska something of the same sort has taken place with Dandelions. Dandelions are native to Europe and have actually been grown as a crop in many places there for centuries. They migrated to the east coast of North America along with the seeds for deliberately introduced European crops like pasture grasses, wheat/oats/rye/barley and because they are excellent wind spread colonizers they made it across the continent to the west coast faster than the Europeans who traveled to the west coast in large numbers in the 19th century. Alaska first received Dandelions around the mid 20th century when Americans started trying to grow hardy grains like Barley near Anchorage and the suburban schtick caused Alaskans to plant lawn grasses imported from the lower 48. As a result Dandelions have been spreading through Alaska for about 7 decades now and about 15 years ago they invaded Denali National Park. I know because at the time the National Park Service put out a plea for volunteers to help them uproot and eliminate the dandelions which are by definition an invasive species in North America. They spent millions of dollars and thousands of man hours sending ranger lead groups of volunteers out in an attempt to eliminate every Dandelion in the park. The problem is Dandelions are now well established all around the southern end of the park, so every year new seeds blow into the park.

I know the Park management and rangers are doing what they believe is best, but could there be anything more labeled as a "First World Problem" than government resources being used in an impossible battle against the power of Nature to spread species around? Especially when there are people suffering from insufficient food and medical resources in the same first world country?

Nature bats last, whenever the well intentioned but pointless efforts finally cease Nature will still be spreading the seeds for all these plants. The article at the link even tacitly admits that well established invasives never go away permanently and require renewed effort every year to control.


Here I am just shy of 2.5 years later and what did I stumble across yesterday?

Trust chair and Southland regional councillor Ali Timms is steamed. The Government owns the pines—and is responsible by dint of history for their planting—but has five times denied the trust funds to control them. The trust itself is a response to that obdurance, a coalition formed in 2007 of DOC and Environment Southland, backed by LINZ and MfE, which have given funding commitments from their own operational budgets.

But a $9 million, 12-year control programme for Mid Dome is still $3 million short, and now central Government has thrown another curve ball at Timms. Under provisions in the Emissions Trading Scheme, the trust could, perversely, be held liable for $3 million in deforestation penalties if it removes any more pines.

“That’s our funding shortfall,” she says, as we climb the hill in a bucking Hilux. “We’ll have to spend that money on carbon credits, instead of taking trees out of Mid Dome. If we’re held liable for these trees, we’ll just be forced to walk away. And that would be a tragic waste of all the years of work, not to mention the money, that has been put into Mid Dome.”

As befuddled climate change policy hobbles the control of wildings, the phenomenon itself is giving them a shot in the arm. According to a 2006 MfE report, contorta is enjoying the warming weather. “Seedlings of Pinus contorta appear to now grow faster than previously,” it notes.
Ethan Gabriel mops up wilding seedlings on Pukaki Downs Station. “I really like trees—they’re beautiful things, living things. These are just in the wrong place. If I thought too much about how they’ve spread all over the place, it would do my head in.”


So the Insanity of this whole scheme to "control invasive pines" has now taken another step into the abyss where one hand of the "green" movement is still dedicated to killing every tree they can while the other hand is planning to punish them for killing trees and releasing the carbon those trees were taking up back into the atmosphere.

If it weren't so tragic it would be gut shaking belly laugh funny.

Oh and the new "cost effective" solution for killing trees is to fit helicopters with very long spray probes that extend beyond the down wash zone from the rotors and pay a pilot to spend his daylight hours flitting from tree to tree selectively spraying them with a combination herbicide. It seems they tried using traditional helicopter spray rigs like you use for crop dusting and the down wash contaminated huge areas to apply enough to kill a tree. They still intend to use that method for large stands of trees, but that immediately drops them back into removing trees releases carbon sequestered by those same trees before they killed them. Not to mention it creates a dead forest that is just perfect for an instant forest fire from the next lightning strike as the dead dry trees go up in flames like magic.

Seriously, is nobody at the DOC aware of reality in any way shape manner or form?
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 13 Nov 2019, 11:05:26

Good God what hubris! Natural forces shaped these plants and animals to survive and thrive over the last half a billion years yet these persons believe they can defeat that.

For pities sake, we are not talking about a small isolated island with limited access to "contamination" from the outside world! Hundreds of jumbo jets and ships arrive in New Zealand every day of the year, day in and day out. Accidental introduction alone would make this an impossible goal, but when you couple it with the fact that hundreds of species of plants and animals the battle was lost before it even began.

Look, if you are a private property owner and want to keep your own land clear you will have to do a heck of a lot of work but its your bussiness. Or you could figure out how North American and European land owners prevent these species from over running their land and emulate them. But having the national government invest billions every year in a futile fight is equivalent to doing a heart transplant on a patient with brain cancer.

How did New Zealand elect such foolish leaders for the country? Is it just the politicians promised to "fix the invasive species problem" so they are committed beyond all reason? Or is there something else going on? One thing I am certain of, if this were Somalia or Bangledesh the government would be focusing efforts on more fundamental concerns rather than fanciful notions of defeating nature.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 21 Aug 2021, 16:32:00

americandream wrote:And we voted in another conservative government with more free market remedies just as the world descends into deregulation horror.


Yes but the PM knows how to look forlorn on the TV, she's quite the em-pathetic creature with her moist eyes and caring words. I wonder if she's like that off camera? Probably. You have to have a figurehead the people can rally to as they go down the gurgler so to speak.
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Aug 2021, 20:05:40

theluckycountry wrote:
americandream wrote:And we voted in another conservative government with more free market remedies just as the world descends into deregulation horror.


Yes ....


Why all the misinformation about New Zealand?

New Zealand is a wonderful little country---lets try to keep our discussions about New Zealand truthful, shall we?

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The government of New Zealand is currently in the hands of the LABOR PARTY. The Labor Party is on the left-----it is not a "conservative government" as you claim.

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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 04 Sep 2021, 02:28:17

Plantagenet wrote:
Why all the misinformation about New Zealand?

New Zealand is a wonderful little country---lets try to keep our discussions about New Zealand truthful, shall we?


You can troll a long way can't you, all the way from Alaska to NZ lol lol
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 12 Sep 2023, 11:06:36

Here is the latest insanity in the wilding pine saga. While the DOC spends billions fighting wilding pines the Carbon Farming project is paying farmers more billions to convert farmland into pine forest!

https://youtu.be/aOP-xnYfhk0?si=WWmZMu215IqjZ78w
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Re: NZ How much energy wasted on pine trees?

Unread postby theluckycountry » Tue 12 Sep 2023, 17:53:00

NZ is such a great place, geography. It has a population of only 5 million, it was 10% higher but that 10% moved permanently to Australia. That's half a million, Why? The cost of living and crime are the key reasons. It has a gang culture that's kept hushed up internationally, it has one of the highest rates of gang membership in the world. As for cost of living, they have no native energy and aside from cheese and lamb grow little food. Everything has to be imported there. It's a great place if your rich and live far from the centers of crime.

Basically it has the same set of social and economic elements as Nicaragua or Colombia, just not as bad. Years earlier it was a lot better, but so was Colombia. About 20% of the population are Maori peoples, indigenous peoples who were murdered and oppressed by the White settlers. Australia has an indigenous population of less than 3% and they are not as intelligent or organized as the Maori so they constitute no problem to society. Wealthy Americans are happy to emigrate to NZ, they are used to Black violence. NZ has the second highest imprisonment rate in the western world. I think the US has the highest? 20% of the general population, 50% of the prison population.

Sorry for pointing out the truth. I have known lots of expats, white expats, the Maori here in Oz keep to themselves and are not represented in the crime statistics. I think the ones we have moved over to get away from that lifestyle.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/research ... ew-zealand
https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/12/ ... membership
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016 ... ds-prisons
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