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New Growth Economics

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New Growth Economics

Unread postby Duende » Sun 12 Jul 2009, 12:45:40

Here are a few pull quotes from a book I've been reading lately called "the Ingenuity Gap" by Dixon. It references a concept which, until now, I have been unfamiliar with. It is called "New Growth Economics."
“Economic growth occurs whenever people take resources and rearrange them in ways that are more valuable. A useful metaphor for production in an economy comes from the kitchen. To create valuable final products, we mix inexpensive ingredients together according to a recipe. The cooking one can do is limited by the supply of ingredients, and most cooking in the economy produces undesirable side effects. If economic growth could be achieved only by doing more and more of the same kind of cooking, we would eventually run out of raw materials and suffer from unacceptable levels of pollution and nuisance. History teaches us, however, that economic growth springs from better recipes, not just from more cooking. New recipes generally produce fewer unpleasant side effects and generate more economic value per unit of raw material.

Every generation has perceived the limits to growth that finite resources and undesirable side effects would pose if no new recipes or ideas were discovered. And every generation has underestimated the potential for finding new recipes and ideas. We consistently fail to grasp how many ideas remain to be discovered. Possibilities do not add up. They multiply.”

Our prosperity is a function, in part, of both the natural resources available to us and the ingenuity we apply to these resources. Similarly, the quantities and characteristics of the natural resources available to us determines how much and what types of social ingenuity we need to be prosperous.

I think there is something to be said for this concept in the face of declining natural resources (as our economy attempts to climb out of its current hole).

My concern is that every economic push upward - every 'efficiency' as Romer would have it - is itself subject to diminishing returns. So how many pushes upward can our economy continue to make? How resilient is the concept of 'growth'?
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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby Duende » Sun 12 Jul 2009, 13:55:14

pstarr wrote:
enough said.

But is it? What if efficiencies can continue to move faster than the increases in consumption associated with Jevon's Paradox?
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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby nobodypanic » Sun 12 Jul 2009, 13:57:27

pstarr wrote:Sustainable growth is an oxymoron. Check out Jevon's Paradox:
the proposition that technological progress that increases the efficiency with which a resource is used, tends to increase (rather than decrease) the rate of consumption of that resource.
enough said.

careful, yesplease is going to come in and try to beat you over the head with the claim that we haven't seen J's paradox since the age of steam and coal. :P
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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby JPL » Sun 12 Jul 2009, 19:33:38

If I can chip in my 2 cents worth, the crash of '08 (or at least the events that led up to it) was IMHO mainly caused by computers. Or rather, risk-modelling (an oxymoron if ever there was one) being refined into software products that could only deliver results, not failure.

This belief in the predictive power of machinery has taken us to the brink of chaos and yet we still cannot accept where the fault lay.

If we continue to remain hypnotised by the products of our own cleverness we will go the same way as the Maya, the Romans, ancient Greece, you name it, there are plenty of examples.

Pulling back from the brink is no longer possible IMHO but at least we could go over it with dignity rather than still clinging on to our little totems & symbols of a belief system that no longer has any purpose, or meaning, at all.

JP
Nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
The needle returns to the start of the song
And we all sing along like before


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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby burn0gas » Sun 12 Jul 2009, 19:53:35

JPL wrote:If I can chip in my 2 cents worth, the crash of '08 (or at least the events that led up to it) was IMHO mainly caused by computers. Or rather, risk-modelling (an oxymoron if ever there was one) being refined into software products that could only deliver results, not failure.

This belief in the predictive power of machinery has taken us to the brink of chaos and yet we still cannot accept where the fault lay.

If we continue to remain hypnotised by the products of our own cleverness we will go the same way as the Maya, the Romans, ancient Greece, you name it, there are plenty of examples.

Pulling back from the brink is no longer possible IMHO but at least we could go over it with dignity rather than still clinging on to our little totems & symbols of a belief system that no longer has any purpose, or meaning, at all.

JP


That's some straight up fresh doom porn right there I tell ya...
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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby JPL » Sun 12 Jul 2009, 20:05:47

burn0gas wrote:
JPL wrote:If I can chip in my 2 cents worth, the crash of '08 (or at least the events that led up to it) was IMHO mainly caused by computers. Or rather, risk-modelling (an oxymoron if ever there was one) being refined into software products that could only deliver results, not failure.

This belief in the predictive power of machinery has taken us to the brink of chaos and yet we still cannot accept where the fault lay.

If we continue to remain hypnotised by the products of our own cleverness we will go the same way as the Maya, the Romans, ancient Greece, you name it, there are plenty of examples.

Pulling back from the brink is no longer possible IMHO but at least we could go over it with dignity rather than still clinging on to our little totems & symbols of a belief system that no longer has any purpose, or meaning, at all.

JP


That's some straight up fresh doom porn right there I tell ya...


-2

Grrr...

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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby odegaard » Mon 13 Jul 2009, 04:45:18

“Economic growth occurs whenever people take resources and rearrange them in ways that are more valuable. A useful metaphor for production in an economy comes from the kitchen. To create valuable final products, we mix inexpensive ingredients together according to a recipe. The cooking one can do is limited by the supply of ingredients, and most cooking in the economy produces undesirable side effects. If economic growth could be achieved only by doing more and more of the same kind of cooking, we would eventually run out of raw materials and suffer from unacceptable levels of pollution and nuisance. History teaches us, however, that economic growth springs from better recipes, not just from more cooking. New recipes generally produce fewer unpleasant side effects and generate more economic value per unit of raw material.

History also teaches us that "better recipes" quite often arise from using superior ingredients.

For example engineers have successfully "cooked up" faster jet planes thanks to using "better ingredients" like composite materials which are (lighter and stronger) than aluminum.

Unfortunately cornucopians in their infinite stupidity actually believe they can cook up a tastier dish using lower grade ingredients. :roll:
"They're not too big to fail, they're too big to bail out!" Peter Schiff
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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby Kylon » Tue 14 Jul 2009, 17:07:35

I believe that technology can save us, but it might not.

I believe that there are vast improvements to be made in regards to nuclear power, solar capacity per amount of material, efficiency, and cost per solar cell, geothermal improvements, combustion engine improvements and many more improvements to technology which is currently developed, or being developed but isn't yet as competitive with fossil fuels.

We also have the possibility of creating substitutes for things we are in short supply of. As we reduce the amount of copper available, we might switch to aluminum for wiring and circuitry. We could use slightly large diameter wires to compensate for the increased resistance.

For things which we can't make more of easily, or cannot acquire more of easily, there is the potential for substitutes in many cases.

For other things, there is the potential for increased recycling capacities.


However, developing these substitutes, these power sources, these resource supplies, they all effectively require a lot of talent and skill. This talent is being directed towards making internet connections to porn sites faster. These talents are being directed towards making your phone have better bells and whistles.

Furthermore in order for a technology to save us it has to be adopted. I believe that technologies could save us but won't because technology A) may not be developed, and B) may not be adopted.


So I think technology could save us but won't. Not because the potential isn't there, but because of social issues it might not be realized.
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Re: New Growth Economics

Unread postby JPL » Tue 14 Jul 2009, 17:27:28

Kylon wrote:I believe that technology can save us, but it might not.

I believe that there are vast improvements to be made in regards to nuclear power, solar capacity per amount of material, efficiency, and cost per solar cell, geothermal improvements, combustion engine improvements and many more improvements to technology which is currently developed, or being developed but isn't yet as competitive with fossil fuels.

We also have the possibility of creating substitutes for things we are in short supply of. As we reduce the amount of copper available, we might switch to aluminum for wiring and circuitry. We could use slightly large diameter wires to compensate for the increased resistance.

For things which we can't make more of easily, or cannot acquire more of easily, there is the potential for substitutes in many cases.

For other things, there is the potential for increased recycling capacities.


However, developing these substitutes, these power sources, these resource supplies, they all effectively require a lot of talent and skill. This talent is being directed towards making internet connections to porn sites faster. These talents are being directed towards making your phone have better bells and whistles.

Furthermore in order for a technology to save us it has to be adopted. I believe that technologies could save us but won't because technology A) may not be developed, and B) may not be adopted.


So I think technology could save us but won't. Not because the potential isn't there, but because of social issues it might not be realized.


Image

'nuff said.

JP
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The needle returns to the start of the song
And we all sing along like before


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