Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 05 Oct 2009, 13:38:31

I'm going to add a little to the employment situation summary. All numbers are raw, not adjusted.

The civilian labor force dropped by a mind-boggling 1.28 million in September from August, with 235 thousand people being added to the workforce. The participation rate plunged .6% to 65.0%.

The employment-population ratio - the TRUE measure of employment in this nation - fell to 58.9%. The actual number of the unemployed rose by 285 thousand, while those not in the labor force jumped by 1.516 million.

And unemployment for those aged 16-19 years old skyrocketed in September to 25.8% from 24.2% in August. For this age group, the emp-pop ratio is just 26.2% with the participation rate falling off the cliff, from 40.7% to 35.3%.

This, by far, is THE WORST employment situation report I have ever read. Bar none.
I ran the numbers on how many jobs we have actually lost since December 2007 - the beginning of the recession-cum-depression - and how many jobs we'd have to create each and every month for the next two years just to return to November 2007 levels…

I hope you are sitting down, have a good stiff drink at your side, and no firearms or sharp objects are within reach. And all small children are safely stowed away.

Jobs lost in the past 22 months total 8,039,000, while the non-institutionalized civilian adult population (i.e. those not in prison, or a mental hospital, etc.) has risen by 3,166,000. This brings the ACTUAL jobs lost number to 11,205,000.

Now, dividing 3.166m by 22 months roughly equals 144,000. This is the number of jobs that have to be created every month in order to keep up with the growth in population; taken times 24, this gives us 3,456,000 additional jobs that need to be created to keep up with population growth between now and September 2011.

Added together, this means we need to have 14,661,000 - or an average of 610,000 - jobs added to the economy by the above date to reach par with November 2007.

There you go. The V-shaped recovery and green shoots simultaneously detonated...
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2009/10/on-point-unemployment-report.html


That's a pretty bleak statistic.. in the last 22 months, population growth equaled around 37.5% of the jobs lost! See where this this going? Just to stay even with where we are today, and keep our total unemployed number stable, we'd have to add 144,000 jobs a month.
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Mon 05 Oct 2009, 23:09:45

It gets worse.

Lots of those unemployed people have been unemployed for more than six months. Some for more than a year.

They have utterly useless skills or they have useful skills but have been unemployed for so long that they are losing their edge.

When time comes to hire people, are they going to hire the 53-year-old who hasn't worked for two years or the 23-year-old who just finished grad school?

Those in their 50s who remain unemployed for any serious length of time are completely screwed. They are too old to go back to school and too expensive to insure. Moreover, these are exactly the people who have been draining their home equity to fund consumption.

The 55-65 group, the early baby boomers, are not going to recover. They don't have time for their 401Ks to recover and they can't work forever. They will become an entire generation of impoverished elderly people. Some of them were responsible and saved money for their retirements. Others are employed by the government and entitled to guaranteed pensions. But for the rest, it's ugly.
"www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Tyler_JC
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5438
Joined: Sat 25 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Boston, MA

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby pup55 » Tue 06 Oct 2009, 10:02:01

Just to stay even with where we are today, and keep our total unemployed number stable, we'd have to add 144,000 jobs a month.


Well, the population growth thing is a two edged sword, naturally, because population growth also equals "more customers"....

There is a school of thought that says that the population growth in the country is too slow, thanks to us baby boomers discovering artificial birth control, and having smaller families than the two previous generations. We got into the preposterous situation of this baby boom generation all reaching middle age, and not consuming as much as we used to. There's now way for the echo generation/gen Y to buy as much crap as we did....particularly in light of the fact that we have screwed them out of decent entry level jobs, as documented elsewhere, hence the big slowdown....

I think the demographers have been worried about this for years... The solution: Import the most productive segment population from south of the border, so that they can buy cars, cellphones, and rent our apartment buildings. and pop out a few babies to keep the game going...Same can be said for the H1B cases that we were talking about the other day.....In either case, we are not going to tell 10 million people at the prime of their consumption phase to go back home......You never hear that argument....

Those in their 50s who remain unemployed for any serious length of time are completely screwed. They are too old to go back to school and too expensive to insure. Moreover, these are exactly the people who have been draining their home equity to fund consumption.


I just have to comment on this, as well.....since I am in this age group....I am focused on the 50-year old white collar worker at the moment....

I've been around some corporate-type environments, and I have to say that it never ceases to amaze me how many people there are in some of these places that add no real value to the business....They show up every day, email things back and forth to one another, have important meetings to determine the agenda for the next meeting and do a lot of wheel spinning, and a lot of them get paid a lot of money for it. How did such a thing come about? There was a 25 year period without a serious business downturn, and during this time, a lot of weak managers got jobs they shouldn't have, and set up their organization full of attractive people with good lines of BS but no real skills....There was no "cleansing" period during which some of the excess could be wrung out of the system.

The modern "HR" systems added to the problem. If you could manage somehow to get a job, all you had to do is be pleasant around the office, ideally well-dressed and good looking, and you'd get a favorable job review every year, because the systems are set up, as Laurence J. Peter suggests, to measure "input", that is, your participation in the system, rather than "output", the performance of some measurable amount of work....

So year after year, even at the high levels, these companies were populated by people who got where they were by agreeing with the boss, looking good around the place, and making as few waves as possible. Some of these people actually became managers. A lot of them, not all, have never run any actual business more complicated than a lemonade stand...

This did no favors to the employees, as we are now seeing. You get a job, you figure out the corporate environment, you keep your head low, and make sure to show up at the company christmas party and play nice during the meetings, and you get a good review and you do exactly the same thing the next year.... so there is no incentive to innovate, to take risks, develop new skills, and do anything if there is a potential of failure. You get people in their jobs who have not developed any sort of risk-taking skills, have no real self-assessment ability, since all they did was agree with the boss for all of those years....You get your 3% raise every year, and eventually, you are making pretty good money doing nothing of real value to the organization.

Naturally, you go out and buy a bigger house, you get a nice car, so that you can be seen as powerful around the office, you take your vacations to Cancun, put your kids in private school.... I suppose I do not need to rant at this point.....because Tyler is exactly right.... this is where the spending habits entrap them even more into the situation.

So the business hits a brick wall, the few competent managers around finally correctly start to question some of the activities, and start to lay people off, and before long, a lot of these people find their way onto the street....The situation is correctly described above: No relevant job skills except agreeing with the boss, a lot of overhead to pay for, maybe you are smart enough to save and maybe not, and you get a lot of fearful people....the most fearful, of course, are the stepford/trophy wives, that are at home taking care of the status symbols.... and have themselves developed no useful skills since getting their MRS degree in 1985 and then retiring....This adds one more source of irritation to the already frustrated man of the house..

A lot of them got overweight during this period too. Just saying.

Ironically, well, not ironically but tragically, the reality is, that a lot of these people know that they're trapped. They are not emotionally or intellectually satisfied with their jobs either (it is soul-robbing to spend your career being a yes-man )..This causes just as much stress and frustration, and makes it pretty unsatisfying to show up at the office every day.

So, what ought to be a blessing, a chance to be liberated from this kind of environment, be creative, be all you can be, and reset your career to something fun, which gives you a sense of accomplishment, becomes a life catastrophe for some of these guys. They sit around and whine, and do their outplacement which is a placebo version of what their job was, and wait....I am sure the suicide rates among these people are increasing, but suicide requires a bit of initiative, so it would not surprise me if it did not....Their stepford wives go into panic mode, at the prospect of losing their gravy train, which makes the situation even worse....So the divorce rate starts to climb....The health insurance thing makes it even worse.... I can name at least 3 overweight 50-55 year olds that need hip replacements....

So, what is going to happen? Well, these are the flower children of the 60-'s and 70's... They will use their political power (it's a democracy, after all) to do what they always did, which is to whine so that someone comes and bails them out.

So that is what is going to happen. This will go on as long as it can.

BTW my personal attitude toward this issue is completely different than most....
User avatar
pup55
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5249
Joined: Wed 26 May 2004, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Aaron » Tue 06 Oct 2009, 12:01:27

Yet another Gem from Pup...

A "perfect storm" of Peter Principal at work...

Try and play nice as your government sells the country your grandparents sacrificed for, to new arrivals whose grandparents literally destroyed their own homelands.

Moore looks correct with his latest film... enjoy your gerrymandered oligarchy.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

Hazel Henderson
User avatar
Aaron
Resting in Peace
 
Posts: 5998
Joined: Thu 15 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Houston

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby pup55 » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 12:27:13

Sorry to serial-rant, but I should say that I think there is actually some hope in all of this....
.
I should also explain that I used to work in one of those places where the incumbent technology was about 40 years old, the sales cycle for innovative products was about 10 years, because it is a basic-materials business that is pretty well commoditized, selling into a mature industry (the automotive supply chain, of course)....It's similar enough to the refinery business that I can figure out a lot of the economics....

In that kind of environment, it is pretty easy to build a nice career, and get a nice salary, by being an innovation killer. Here is how it works: Someone in engineering, or maybe customer service, has some idea about how to improve the product, or improve some aspect of service, delivery or logistics, and in one of the periodic communication meetings that happens would thoughtfully put out some kind of proposal..... Sometimes this happened informally, but from time to time, this would happen deliberately, and a lot of the planning and business modeling would be laid out in some detail.

Meetings would be held, the innovators were allowed to state their case, and it was at that point that the "counter-innovators" would come up with a lot of excuses for not doing it, question the base assumptions, and slow down, if not completely stop, the entire process. The reason that this was a successful career strategy is that it is easy to kill an idea, or starve it to death, because the default position, so to speak, let things go on the way they have, is risk-free. The basic assumption is, "that's the way it is... it's what made us successful all of these years...."

An innovation that fails, of course, makes the innovation killers look brilliant and the innovators look like idiots. It takes 100 times more energy and talent to innovate than it does to kill an innovation, so most of the time, the innovation killers have the odds in their favor.

Any changes to this massive-scale equipment was expensive, of course, and sometimes the business would have to make a pretty sizeable investment to make it work, so in a way, in the short run, they were right. In the long run, of course, it's a catastrohpe.

An offshoot of this, of course, is the Al Dunlaps and/or Nardellis of the world, who built their career on cutting..... reducing overhead and/or streamlining operations, which is a useful skill in and of itself because it improves economic efficiency, but is terrible from the standpoint of innovation, because by its very nature, innovation is messy and inefficient.....That was the subject of an earlier rant, that we can probably unearth....

The point of all of this is, that there gets to be a lot of tension between the innovators, who have ideas on how to improve the business and make it grow, and implement change, and the counter-innovators......and at least in the mature business that I was in.....It was particularly dangerous for an innovator to be put into any kind of position of authority, because the first thing he or she did was start to shake up the status quo.... which got people nervous....and violated Peter's first and foremost rule of organizational behavior: The Hierarchy Must Be Preserved....Typically, the innovation killers were the ones that were populating the higher levels....being as it was one of those mature industries....

And, of course it is the very reason, particularly in automotive and other manufacturing, that these companies refused to change, even in the face of catastrophe, and had to be bailed out by the government.


The bright side is, from time to time, the analysts and management figured out that the headcount was too high, so there was an overhead purge, and along with the skill-free yes people, occasionally the innovation killers that were running the place would use it as an excuse to get rid of some of the 1% of the people that ticked somebody off at some point........From the point of view of the organization, these people were a bit dangerous..... but from the point of view of the rest of the world, they are the ones who are bright, ambitious, determined, innovative, risk-taking, and not afraid to keep the ball in play even if they failed from time to time...Naturally they did not fit into the corporate structure.....especially in a mature industry where a "success" might take you five years... A lot of them even had cluttered desks... can you imagine?

With these seeds of creativity finally liberated from their protective pod, these people are free to develop new products, establish new business and industries, and generally make things better for the economy and society as a whole. Of course, there are plenty of failures that are liberated as part of this too.... and it's kind of hard to distinguish between the two in the early stages.... but that is not all bad...

Failure makes you smarter, provided you learn from it, and use it as a chance to change....

The point is, that situations like this have the potential free up a lot of human energy that, in maybe 1% of the cases, can sow the seeds of a new industry. It's definitely going to be rough for the 99%.....

BTW a side point: I think the current argument about universal health care completely ignores the fact that a lot of bright people right now are dumbing themselves down, and putting up with a lot of BS in a corporate type environment, so that they can work in a place that has health insurance, rather than going out and innovating......
Last edited by pup55 on Wed 07 Oct 2009, 20:00:01, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
pup55
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5249
Joined: Wed 26 May 2004, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Aaron » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 13:01:47

Pup's references to "mature" industries & businesses can't be stressed enough in this analysis I think.

With years or decades of economic success, comes an inertia which defines these models more & more over time, transforming them into a stultifying mass which becomes increasingly hostile to innovation. We see this in numerous industries across the economic spectrum, including healthcare, insurance, pharmaceuticals, legal, government and other top down bureaucracies. These businesses are traditionally very profitable and become adept at lobbying (read bribing) regulatory bodies to prevent or stifle competitive ventures which might reshuffle the deck, so to speak.

I have observed this trend first hand in computer software development especially in government, legal, healthcare & educational organizations, where downright antiquated software offerings continue to dominate the landscape, and newer, more innovative products are pigeon-holed to prevent the loss of market share for their outdated cousins.

It is through the exploitation of purportedly "democratic" institutions, that these dinosaurs can continue their march into mediocrity, and mitigate or subsume more youthful innovative competition.

Talk about real-world examples of the tragedy of the commons...
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

Hazel Henderson
User avatar
Aaron
Resting in Peace
 
Posts: 5998
Joined: Thu 15 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Houston

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 13:06:56

It's called "The Inertia of Established Capital."
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 13:13:28

Pup-

Just on the topic of people that are totally, utterly useless in the work environment. This must be very common, especially in certain work (healthcare). It reminds me of the "Bobs" from "Office Space" when they ask "What do you actually do here?"... Its amazing how these companies/corporations put up with this (and they do from what i've seen). I will say i worked in a warehouse for a few years and i'd say that NO ONE stood around there. Every person had a task to do at all times and if you didn't you better start looking busy. They terminated people all the time and kept the revolving door going (in with new, out with the old). Rarely did anyone stay there more then 5 years. The more senior guys (lower positions) were targeted constantly and most were let go for any reason possible.

Kick the Mexicans out and send them back to the fields at minimum wage? Shut off the combines and let them harvest corn by hand?
lawns should be outlawed.
User avatar
frankthetank
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6202
Joined: Thu 16 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Southwest WI

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 13:15:24

I'll just add...

I read that 80% of our economy is service based... I can't see how that can be maintained. Can we all get paid to wipe each other's asses?
lawns should be outlawed.
User avatar
frankthetank
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6202
Joined: Thu 16 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Southwest WI

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 13:42:00

I wonder how much energy is used generating GNP in a service economy... how much oil does a scissors cut at Haircuttery consume or having a toe manicure done use, compared to manufacturing shoes, a computer or a car?

Argueably (in lieu of an alternate transportation system) you can say you need a car, and you need shoes, and a refrigerator (which would have been part of a nice 1950s US manufacturing economy), but how much of our GNP now is not REAL or tangible or necessary (particularly service economy) ?

Good point above... about everyone being paid to "wipe each other". Add to that a lot of gov bureaucratic jobs...

Some services can be specialized but one can always do ones own toes, or (even though it may look crummy) cut own hair, do own taxes. I'd be hard-pressed to build an entire car from scratch, including the engine parts.

Essentially what we largely as a society do, is wipe each other and make money. The degree to which money flows in from the outside is a result of past strength and inventing a system we are finding increasingly difficult to game, now that other countries are figuring out the rules. More money seems to be flowing out.

I suppose peak oil will eventually sort this out... I see everything re-winding... I wonder when we get back to 1959?
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby pup55 » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 17:56:15

I read that 80% of our economy is service based... I can't see how that can be maintained


It can't possibly be maintained. It does not add value.

I will say i worked in a warehouse for a few years and i'd say that NO ONE stood around there. Every person had a task to do at all times and if you didn't you better start looking busy.


Yeah, the closer you get to "blue collar" the more this is true. Funny how that works out. That's because they had a known job, with a known, measureable amount of output that they were expected to do. The entry barrier for them hiring someone else was a couple of hours of training, and it did not require a rocket scientist. So, anyone who did not pull their X number of orders was shown the door.

It reminds me of the "Bobs" from "Office Space" when they ask "What do you actually do here?"... Its amazing how these companies/corporations put up with this


It goes back to the fact that in these places, a lot of the political power that a manager in the organization has is derived from the number of bright people that work for him. "He has a staff of 20 MBA market analysts. He must be important." The bosses in the organizations that set this up are masking their own deep seated insecurity. The organizations put up with it as long as the performance of the business unit is sufficiently strong.... Example" "Your sales were up 10% this quarter, go ahead and hire some market analysts" but that goes back to the point that a lot of that is based solely on the economic conditions that are going on at the time, and that's where 25 years of prosperity come in.... A lot of these management geniuses benefited from good overall economic conditions. What about now?

how much of our GNP now is not REAL or tangible or necessary


Back to this point: An economy is about "adding value".... Example: If you dig some substance out of the ground, make something that people need, fix something that is broken, build something, convert a material from a useless form to a useful one, or grow something in the ground, you're adding value, and that ought to be counted in GDP.

Our so-called economy is about $13 trillion. About half of that, about 6T is in services, and of the 6T in services, $1.4T of it is health care, which as SPG will tell you is 75% spent on the last year of life, i.e. getting grandma to live that one extra year.... about $3T is government, at various levels, which includes defending our oil supply and/or liberating Iraq and Afghanistan, maintaining a giant naval base near Chicago to protect us from our hostile neighbor, Canada, maintaining giant military installations which protect West Germany from invasion by East Germany, something which became totally irrelevant in 1989, and of course, keeping giant military facilities around Japan, to defend them while they send us Toyotas to be driven around the deserted streets of Detroit.

My favorite of course is "legal and financial services".... It's about a trillion dollars. When Michael Jackson's estate sues the doctors for giving him embalming fluid, the legal fees from both sides will be counted as GDP....It won't bring Michael back.

The "value adding" part of the economy is only about $3T. That's why we're in the state that we are in. 75% of what we count as GDP adds little or no value to anything. Do you see why there is really a problem?

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/2009/pdf/gdp2q09_3rd.pdf
User avatar
pup55
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5249
Joined: Wed 26 May 2004, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby drew » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 18:21:18

Wow, Pup, those rants actually made me feel better. I know soooooo many people like that in the offices where I work. In our case you see them hanging out in the smoking area for hours on end.

We do wonder 'just what does he do all day?'

Anyways on a related note, since the managers of our enterprise can't make money we'll have lost 50% of my coworkers by November 1st.

Drew
User avatar
drew
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Thu 22 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: canada

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby pup55 » Wed 07 Oct 2009, 20:38:12

Anyways on a related note, since the managers of our enterprise can't make money we'll have lost 50% of my coworkers by November 1st.


Well, I am sorry to hear that anyway. Sorry for the continued ranting, but I am on a roll...

One of the bad things that happened, in my opinion, is that it became politically unpalatable for there to be a recession. After the economy went to hell in the 1982 time frame, a lot of things and people were put in the place so that there would be continued prosperity...Keep in mind the hypocrisy of the so-called "free marketers" doing this. . We, the frequent viewers of PO.com, are well aware of them. The Fed's job evolved from being an economic regulator to being an economic CPR artist, and inflated the various bubbles that we are well aware of. The government itself put in enough measurement changes, including the asinine measurement of GDP we discussed above, so that it would appear, on the surface, that we had a nice, continuously expanding economy. The media, and a lot of the government officials bought into the system....The consumer/advertising economy did everything it could to keep it going.

It was bad, because the normal 60-month business cycle had a useful purpose.... maybe some of the economic theorists around will cite one of the old timey economists like Kondratieff in this regard, but the benefit was, it caused people to bite the bullet and figure out what was and was not a value-added activity, and do the things that added value, and get rid of the things that did not add value. If a manager was good, he or she had been around during the last lean time, and would actually learn how to run a business, allocate resources, better yet not add resources unless they added value, and the whole economy was focused on adding value.

well, we all know what happened. During the 25 year period of so-called prosperity, people that had no experience running one of these operations managed to get to positions of authority on the basis of their managerial brilliance, and they had no clue.... and so.... at this point, there is a lot of blubber in the system that will have to be wrung out.

pup28 and pup31 knew all about the difference between value-added and non-value added activity. In their childhood during the first great depression, they, and their parents, were experts, in fact, at prioritizing and resource allocation, at the family level, so much so that the value of "formal education" was judged to be secondary to the value of scooping rock to bring in a few dollars....i think one of the messages of Dimitri Orlov is quite similar....People pretty soon are going to figure out what is and is not important, and do the important things.....There will be a period of pain between now and then though, as your friends are about to find out....

As to the original thread topic.... the jobs recovery.... I think it is clear that there will be a completely different idea of what a "job" is, and that is not all bad, you know.

I'm a bit worried about the transition. There will be a lot of ticked off people. Almost anything could happen. The most dangerous, in a way, is that the stimulus, the bailout and a lot of the things that are now going on will actually work, and we will avoid the painful cleansing that we need.

Silly humans. Always looking for an easy, painless way. Oh, wait a minute... there was a time when people didn't look for the easy way.... had character.... were hard working and industrious.... maybe that era will return. What a blessing.

We will see what happens.
User avatar
pup55
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5249
Joined: Wed 26 May 2004, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby pup55 » Thu 08 Oct 2009, 10:18:06

there was a time when people didn't look for the easy way.... had character.... were hard working and industrious...


After thinking about this overnight, I have to say, that while at some points throughout our history, hard work, industriousness, creativity, honesty and character were celebrated, there were always people around who were worthless, annoying, dead weight that sponged off the system, and had other character flaws, so maybe it is part of the human condition that a certain segment of the population works the system and/or is dead weight.

We know for sure it went back to biblical times, when it was necessary for commandments to be written because it is apparently human nature to loaf, take the system for granted, fool around on the side, rip off what you can't earn, and have the twin thought crimes of "coveting", which means to look at your neighbors and really wish you had his wife and his stuff.....

Maybe nowadays, it's not our fault.... the system is set up for this kind of inefficiency, and people are what they are.

Maybe it's part of the human condition....

Dunno. We'll see I guess.
User avatar
pup55
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5249
Joined: Wed 26 May 2004, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Thu 08 Oct 2009, 10:32:57

We know for sure it went back to biblical times, when it was necessary for commandments to be written because it is apparently human nature to loaf, take the system for granted, fool around on the side, rip off what you can't earn, and have the twin thought crimes of "coveting", which means to look at your neighbors and really wish you had his wife and his stuff.....


It always starts at the top. The Bottom 95% follow him.

the Laws are to keep the serfs in line. While the Military, Priests,
Acquisitors battle for power.

The reason a slave "loafs" is because any extra energy expended
will not be rewarded, and so what energy is there, must be preserved.
mcgowanjm
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2455
Joined: Fri 23 May 2008, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 08 Oct 2009, 16:19:27

pup55 wrote:
I read that 80% of our economy is service based... I can't see how that can be maintained
It can't possibly be maintained. It does not add value.
Wel,l but it is. In US its maintained by 20% that is a real economy+ foreign loans, or more precisely by a half of people who actually do something in that 20% productive segment of economy+ loans.
Wherever you look , bulk of economy is service based. Even in Russia, this monstruos resource peddler has 60% of economy in services.
Why does this happen? Simple really. What we expeirence now worldwide is an abundance of really cheap raw materials, be that wheat or tungsten, due to mechanization, improved technologies, etcs. People who actually do something, like farmers, fishers, miners or ore-melters, naturally do need things to be done for them and their kids. However, their essential needs would not be able to hire everybody. Seriously, how many hair-dressers one working man needs. This means that bulk of the population has to be either on a dole or starved to death. If you let people be on a dole they get this idea that they dont have to work for a living. If let them starve, some of them tend to riot /commit felonies and cause a major disruption. So what you do here is this ( consiidering that comodities are dirt-cheap): you create real jobs with imaginary job descriptions, and convince everybody that they need everything.
This thing will last for quite awhile I'm afraid, though getting darker and murkier every year from now on.
Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Somewhere there

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Troyboy1208 » Fri 09 Oct 2009, 10:39:28

Wow Pup that is some incredible insight. Been following your posts for years but this is a masterpiece
User avatar
Troyboy1208
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed 26 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Orlando FL

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Pops » Fri 09 Oct 2009, 13:04:49

Great rant Pup.

I have only a small amount of experience in a "Company" environment. In the 80's I worked for a jewelry store chain with 15 locations. In the dozen years I was there they pretty well remade their organization, reducing the non-sales staff by probably 2/3.

The in-store "office" staff went from maybe 6-8 people per store to 2-3.
The A/R, A/P staff from 8-2.
THe dozen watch repair staff was eliminated.
The custom jewelry shop from 20 to 5

The driver for the tightening was competition but what allowed both the competition and the elimination of jobs was technology. This company carries it's own credit in-house and computer use reduced clerical and accounting tasks by probably 90%. Obviously digital watches made watch repairmen pretty well worthless and the cost of custom jewelry vs. imported stock jewelry eliminated most of the jeweler positions.

The printing industry is the same, digital technology eliminated 80% of the skilled trades in print shops, photo labs and design studios between '80 and 2000.

Extrapolate those few examples out to the economy as a whole and it's surprising to me we are in as good a shape as we are and little surprise that both the old fashioned "productivity" number as well as income inequality continues to increase.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 09 Oct 2009, 22:29:46

Pops wrote:The driver for the tightening was competition but what allowed both the competition and the elimination of jobs was technology.


Ah, the age-old conundrum that only science fiction writers used to ponder. When machines are doing all our work, what will people do? Between technology and inexhaustible cheap foreign labor, there simply are not enough jobs for Americans to do. This little problem will only get worse as technology eliminates more jobs, and as even more foreign labor comes online with high levels of education and English fluency.

I read somewhere in another thread about how "the nature of what is a job will have to be redefined." Well that's rather esoteric, as in practical terms a JOB is work that someone will pay you to do, and provides the money to support yourself. Where does that leave you when an Indian can do that same work for 1/4 the price? And an Asian for maybe 1/10 the price? And if those prices are still to high, a computer or robot can work 24/7 without whining for niceties like wages, vacation, and healthcare.

As we continue to truck on through the 21st century, more and more Americans are going to get caught into this permanent unemployment trap. We're reaching the endgame of exponential efficiencies, wherein a sizable chunk of the world's human population becomes obsolete and of no use within the brutal marketplace of ultimate productivity / efficiency.
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: w/ population growth, a jobs recovery is now impossible

Unread postby copious.abundance » Fri 09 Oct 2009, 23:07:01

Um, people have been complaining that machines and technology would take away all our jobs since the Industrial Revolution began. Ever heard of Luddites (the original ones)? If they were right we'd have run out of jobs for humans to do long ago.

As for the service economy not "adding value," it is actually services which are the more fundamental value-adding component of an economy, not the manufacture of goods. The purpose of manufacturing an automobile, for example, is to provide a service - getting you from Point A to Point B. That is the real value of an automobile, not the steel, plastic and rubber in and of itself. A Rube Goldberg machine, on the other hand, has little or no value because it does not provide any useful service (aside, possibly, from its entertainment value - but again that would be considered part of the "service" economy). Manufacturing goods for the sake of manufacturing goods does not add value to an economy if there is no need for the service these goods provide.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia

Next

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests