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peak oil is a mere fantasy

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby Aaron » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 14:50:03

Thank HawkMan...

Here to dismiss that notion is Leonardo Maugeri, senior executive vice president of the Italian oil company Eni and author of The Age of Oil (2006). In an opinion piece published in the Wall Street Journal, Maugeri argues that peak oil is a mere fantasy, a tale told only by doom-sayers and the ill-informed. In fact, Maugeri says there is more than enough oil to go around for a long, long time, even if that idea “offends conventional wisdom.” For this hopeful proclamation he offers three good reasons.

First, no one knows how much oil there really is. According to the US Geological Survey, there are at least seven to eight trillion barrels of oil trapped underground. More than two trillion of these have been deemed “recoverable,” while “proven” reserves are around 1.2 trillion barrels. However, Maugeri argues that these data are unreliable, as current estimates don’t take into account unconventional oil resources (like ultra-heavy oils, tar sands, shale oils, etc), which would double the overall figure. To Maugeri, it’s simple: if you don’t know how much oil you have, it’s impossible to calculate the curve of future supply.

Second, new technologies will enable us to extract much more oil than Hubbert (and other doom-sayers) assumed. If this seems like a bit of cheery science-fiction, just look at the past thirty years: Today, we are able to recover 35 percent of the oil contained in known reserves, up from 20 percent in 1980. As oil-retrieving technologies improve, that figure is sure to go up. Maugeri is quick to point out that such technologies already exist. Generally known as enhanced oil recovery (EOR) technologies, they entail injecting an oil reservoir with chemicals, heat, steam, and heavy gases such as carbon dioxide and nitrogen. EORs have produced fantastic results, leading to the revival of many oil fields that had been considered exhausted.

Third, only one third of our planet has been sufficiently explored for new oil deposits. This means that there might be quite a bit more oil out there than we think. Maugeri argues that until recently it has not been “economical or technically feasible to undertake big and sophisticated exploration campaigns when oil was abundant and cheap, as it was for most of the past century.” In other words, before everyone started clamoring about peak oil, the big oil producers had no reason to develop the technology needed to thoroughly search the globe for oil. As these technologies become affordable, oil companies will begin to plumb new depths in search of crude.


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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby Leanan » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 15:31:37

That's actually a summary of this WSJ article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 79402.html
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 16:32:15

Crazy. I read that earlier this week. Such madness.
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby thuja » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 16:39:25

Same old boring shite from the deniers. Here is a current list of countries that have experiences their own private "peak oil".

* Japan: 1932 (assumed; source does not specify)
* Germany: 1966
* Libya: 1970
* Venezuela: 1970
* USA: 1970[148]
* Iran: 1974
* Nigeria: 1979
* Trinidad & Tobago: 1981[149]
* Egypt: 1987[150]
* France: 1988
* Indonesia: 1991[151]
* Syria: 1996[152]
* India: 1997
* New Zealand: 1997[153]
* UK: 1999
* Argentina: 1999 (BP statistical workbook 2007)
* Colombia: 1999 (BP statistical workbook 2007)
* Australia: 2000 (BP statistical workbook 2007; A 2007 report by ABARE predicted that production may rise enough for an ultimate peak in 2009[154])
* Norway: 2000[155]
* Oman: 2000[156]
* Mexico: 2004[157]
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 17:49:26

This is what happens when some moderator merges my thread (scroll to bottom post) with another thread - it just gets posted again anyway.

BTW, half those countries in thuja's list are way too early to tell if they have permanently and forever peaked.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby thuja » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 18:32:57

OilFinder2 wrote:This is what happens when some moderator merges my thread (scroll to bottom post) with another thread - it just gets posted again anyway.

BTW, half those countries in thuja's list are way too early to tell if they have permanently and forever peaked.



Half of those countries...? Mmm...any day now...yeah...
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 18:34:34

I wasn't really thinking of the US.

Some of the nations on that list - particularly Argentina, France, India, Syria, New Zealand, Colombia, Australia, and maybe even Japan, never had particularly large production volumes in the past, and still have large coastal and even some inland areas which haven't been explored much, and it's not hard to imagine seeing them exceed past production records.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby dukey » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 19:56:29

the sun is a fantasy
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby ian807 » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 20:10:24

It's not about peak oil.

It's about oil with positive energy return at an affordable price in a time frame that matters and the effects of oil shortages and high oil prices on the world economy and how that effects other complex systems that make up our civilization.

Maybe we should rename the site.
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby kiwichick » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 20:42:03

please stop knocking of2!!!

he is better than the comedy channel
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby Impervius » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 21:31:33

another person who doesn't realize peak oil isnt about the amount of oil there is, its about the rate at which it can be produced.. The limit has been hit, and the limit will start to fall, hence the bell curve.. It doesnt matter if there is 500 trillion barrels of oil in the ground.
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 21:35:22

pstarr wrote:Do you know how ludicrous this sounds? France produces the Mirage Fighter plane. New Zealand fought off the Orks. These are not 3rd world countries and they are very open to exploration.

Let me guess. Total (a French oil exploration company) forgot to look off their own coast? Really. :P

ad hom deleted by eastbay. Getting tired of warning people.... keep it civil The US - oil exploration and consumption capitol of the world - has barely explored off its own Atlantic coast. They're just starting to explore the Atlantic continental shelf off the coasts of Britain and Ireland. So, yes, Total has not had much opportunity to explore the coasts of France yet. Really! :shock:
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sat 07 Nov 2009, 21:58:38

Oh yeah - and we're not just talking about offshore France either.

>>> Paris Basin, France. A Bakken in France? <<<
Paris Basin Shale Oil.The Company is pursuing the exploitation of unconventional resources in the Paris Basin, which is a transformational growth opportunity. Toreador's work in this area has shown that the Paris Basin has exceedingly similar characteristics to the Bakken Formation in the Williston Basin (North America). The Company has the right to develop 649,000 acres (with an additional 153,000 acres pending regulatory approval) in the heart of the Paris Basin where an estimated 65 billion barrels of oil are believed to remain in the source rock that is located between the long-producing conventional reservoirs of the Paris Basin.

The Company intends to use its proven U.S. experience with the Bakken Formation in Europe to exploit the vast resources that are demonstrated to be in the Paris Basin, using technologies commonplace in the U.S., but not yet employed in Europe. Pursuit of the Paris Basin Oil Shale will comprise four phases, with the scope of the latter three phases depending on previous results. The Company's current focus is on implementing Phase 1 through the end of 2010.

Now, if this basin got even half of the current Bakken production, they'd easily break France's oil production record (which was a piddling 67,000 bpd in the late 1980's).
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Keep your eyes on the ball

Unread postby miraculix » Sun 08 Nov 2009, 07:17:30

If one really takes a good look at what Maugeri actually is saying, it is a confirmation of the main tenets held by most PO believers.

His argument is, that PO folks underestimate the actual size of the resource base, by discounting unconventional oil:

as current estimates don’t take into account unconventional oil resources (like ultra-heavy oils, tar sands, shale oils, etc)


He tosses in the "new" and enhanced recovery technology:

new technologies will enable us to extract much more oil


enlarging the available resource base in the future

Lastly, he points to the fact that there will be oil discoveries in hitherto unexplored provinces:

only one third of our planet has been sufficiently explored for new oil deposits


He concludes however, with this crucial caveat:

until recently it has not been “economical or technically feasible to undertake big and sophisticated exploration campaigns


And here we have the catch in this brave new world picture.

This means clearly, that the days of CHEAP oil are over. PERIOD.

Future EOR will be ever more costly economically, while EIOR declines. New frontiers of oil recovery and production will come with a hefty price tag.

It makes little sense to quarrel over reserve estimates and potential or actual flow rates.

The real issues will remain Economics and EIOR for future oil production. I do not see anything in the article that makes me outlook any more brighter. Quite to the contrary, Maugeri, like other cornies, confirms this circumstance.
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Re: Keep your eyes on the ball

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 08 Nov 2009, 07:27:18

Flow rates are key as they underpin TWAWKI.

Potential reserves are also key as they help us to understand timescales better and may help us to plan for powerdown.


miraculix wrote:If one really takes a good look at what Maugeri actually is saying, it is a confirmation of the main tenets held by most PO believers.

His argument is, that PO folks underestimate the actual size of the resource base, by discounting unconventional oil:

as current estimates don’t take into account unconventional oil resources (like ultra-heavy oils, tar sands, shale oils, etc)


He tosses in the "new" and enhanced recovery technology:

new technologies will enable us to extract much more oil


enlarging the available resource base in the future

Lastly, he points to the fact that there will be oil discoveries in hitherto unexplored provinces:

only one third of our planet has been sufficiently explored for new oil deposits


He concludes however, with this crucial caveat:

until recently it has not been “economical or technically feasible to undertake big and sophisticated exploration campaigns


And here we have the catch in this brave new world picture.

This means clearly, that the days of CHEAP oil are over. PERIOD.

Future EOR will be ever more costly economically, while EIOR declines. New frontiers of oil recovery and production will come with a hefty price tag.

It makes little sense to quarrel over reserve estimates and potential or actual flow rates.

The real issues will remain Economics and EIOR for future oil production. I do not see anything in the article that makes me outlook any more brighter. Quite to the contrary, Maugeri, like other cornies, confirms this circumstance.
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Re: peak oil is a mere fantasy

Unread postby miraculix » Sun 08 Nov 2009, 07:38:02

Flow rates are key as they underpin TWAWKI.

Potential reserves are also key as they help us to understand timescales better and may help us to plan for powerdown.


True enough. But what determines both flow rates and potential reserves?

ECONOMICS and EIOR

As an oil company, I am not going to develop resources in the Arctic, if it is uncertain that I can make a profit.
There may be enough physical oil out there, but if the market can not afford its production, it will stay there.

Further, and this is the part that is even more tricky, is how much energy is going to be embodied by the future volumes of oil. What good does it to know that we may be able to pump 100 mbd in 2015, when it turns out that those 100 mb equal 80 mb of todays oil in net energy terms?
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