[TheAntiDoomer]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/222792

It doesn't look like much from the outside—just a drab, 10-story building on the campus of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, about an hour's drive east of San Francisco. But as I'm walking across the parking lot on a sunny day in October I can't help thinking that someday I might be telling my grandchildren about the time I came to this lab and met Edward Moses and saw the technology that was about to change the world.

Maybe this means I'm an optimist. Or even a sucker; a fool. All I know is that when I meet Moses, the 60-year-old scientist who runs this place, and he shows me a tiny pellet, about the size of the multivitamin I take every morning, and swears it will provide an endless supply of safe, clean energy, I want to believe him. It seems so ridiculously simple, so utterly doable. The pellet Moses holds is a model, but the real version will contain a few milligrams of deuterium and tritium, isotopes of hydrogen that can be extracted from water. If you blast the pellet with a powerful laser, you can create a reaction like the one that takes place at the center of the sun. Harness that reaction, and you've created a star on earth, and with the heat from that star you can generate electricity without creating any pollution. Forget about nuke plants, coal, oil, or wind and solar. "This is the real solar power," says Moses.

[mcgowanjm]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/222792

I can't help thinking that someday I might be telling my grandchildren about the time I came to this lab and

Maybe this means I'm an optimist. If you blast the pellet with a powerful laser, you can create a reaction like the one that takes place at the center of the sun. Harness that reaction, and

Let's see:

1) You're grandkids will be lucky to be alive by 2040.

2) An optimist is the opposite of reality.

3) a blast causes collateral damage/waste. the laser takes
energy to build. 'powerful' takes a lot more energy. A reaction
takes a containment vessel along with a cooling system. A
large lake, river. In other words much like a nuke now.

4) $8 Billion up front. Good luck.

[TheAntiDoomer]

1) You're grandkids will be lucky to be alive by 2040.

Jesus, i don't even know how to respond to something so silly.

2) An optimist is the opposite of reality.

the same could be said of a pessimist.

3) a blast causes collateral damage/waste. the laser takes
energy to build. 'powerful' takes a lot more energy. A reaction
takes a containment vessel along with a cooling system. A
large lake, river. In other words much like a nuke now.

First your a farmer, then you're a phd in Nuclear Physics, who knew.

4) $8 Billion up front. Good luck.

If they show positive test results that show this can work, 8 billion will not be a issue.

[ian807]

We currently have a sustainable fusion power reactor at our disposal. Normally, we call it "The Sun." It is far away for safety reasons but generating far more power than we need. Power collection can be done with some new fangled thing called a "solar cell" that converts fusion generated energy into electricity or with something called "mirrors" that concentrate the energy to run electrical generators.

Boy, that fusion technology sure is something, eh?

[mcgowanjm]

1) You're grandkids will be lucky to be alive by 2040.

Jesus, i don't even know how to respond to something so silly.

2) An optimist is the opposite of reality.

the same could be said of a pessimist.

3) a blast causes collateral damage/waste. the laser takes
energy to build. 'powerful' takes a lot more energy. A reaction
takes a containment vessel along with a cooling system. A
large lake, river. In other words much like a nuke now.

First your a farmer, then you're a phd in Nuclear Physics, who knew.

4) $8 Billion up front. Good luck.

If they show positive test results that show this can work, 8 billion will not be a issue.

Start with the first. So you're a bankster now, eh? 8 billion's
easy, huh? Ontario's having a little trouble finding 8 B's
for their nuke. Maybe you should give 'em a call.

Next: Yeah, I'm a farmer. that's how I have an idea that you're
grandkids will be lucky to be alive by 2040. The Harvest today.
And nuke physics aren't all that hard. My Granddad was close
to Oppenheimer.

But what about my analysis did you disagree with?
Containment or Coolant?

Third: Reality is the key. Thanx for addressing it.

Fourth: Why there is no fourth. I've addressed your perpetual
motion machine and found it wanting.

[Carlhole]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/222792

It doesn't look like much from the outside—just a drab, 10-story building on the campus of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, about an hour's drive east of San Francisco. But as I'm walking across the parking lot on a sunny day in October I can't help thinking that someday I might be telling my grandchildren about the time I came to this lab and met Edward Moses and saw the technology that was about to change the world.

Maybe this means I'm an optimist. Or even a sucker; a fool. All I know is that when I meet Moses, the 60-year-old scientist who runs this place, and he shows me a tiny pellet, about the size of the multivitamin I take every morning, and swears it will provide an endless supply of safe, clean energy, I want to believe him. It seems so ridiculously simple, so utterly doable. The pellet Moses holds is a model, but the real version will contain a few milligrams of deuterium and tritium, isotopes of hydrogen that can be extracted from water. If you blast the pellet with a powerful laser, you can create a reaction like the one that takes place at the center of the sun. Harness that reaction, and you've created a star on earth, and with the heat from that star you can generate electricity without creating any pollution. Forget about nuke plants, coal, oil, or wind and solar. "This is the real solar power," says Moses.

You can't get a decent discussion of a fascinating topic like LIFE on this dumbass site. You need to have contributions from people who know a whole lot more about the engineering and physics of inertial confinement, pro and con this powerful laser approach. The significance of this huge experiment is such that, even were it to fail to yield fusion, much will be learned in the process of trying. But no one around here is interested in complex engineering and basic scientific research. All you'll ever hear is: "If it's so good, how come I can't buy at Walmart?"

Shame, ain't it?

[basil_hayden]

You can't get a decent discussion of a fascinating topic like LIFE on this dumbass site.

That's because the bulk of us have had enough of "Science" and "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

[crude_intentions]

They've been working on creating a reactor using inertial confinement fusion since 1972. I'm sure they're due for a breakthrough at anytime now. All they need is a little bit more money.

[Carlhole]

You can't get a decent discussion of a fascinating topic like LIFE on this dumbass site.

That's because the bulk of us have had enough of "Science" and "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

Science is simply formalized learning and problem-solving. It's just plain STUPID to think that you can separate humanity from science. That's what human beings are all about.

Ask anyone why they come to PO.com: they'll tell you "to learn and to solve problems". Any you reply: "Learning and solving problems is the problem.

[rangerone314]

Maybe someday they'll actually come up with real cold fusion. Followed by weapons based on that. Then the secret will get out and every high school kid with RadioShack parts can build a nuke.

[basil_hayden]

You can't get a decent discussion of a fascinating topic like LIFE on this dumbass site.

That's because the bulk of us have had enough of "Science" and "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

Science is simply formalized learning and problem-solving. It's just plain STUPID to think that you can separate humanity from science. That's what human beings are all about.

Ask anyone why they come to PO.com: they'll tell you "to learn and to solve problems". Any you reply: "Learning and solving problems is the problem.

Carl,

Like everyone else onboard, you can interpret what is written any foolish way you like while you blindly follow the blind.

However, I'm tired of spending time and effort fixing the messes from the last round of "Gee, look at the nifty thing we invented to save humanity time and effort". Your outlook represents infantile science (i.e., merely learning and solving a problem) that this planet has had enough of. We need more mature science (i.e., a thorough understanding of the system before we futz with it), learning before the mess happens. More access to energy leads to more environmental degradation, get it?

Basil the Environmental Geologist Earth's Janitor.

[Carlhole]

You can't get a decent discussion of a fascinating topic like LIFE on this dumbass site.

That's because the bulk of us have had enough of "Science" and "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

Science is simply formalized learning and problem-solving. It's just plain STUPID to think that you can separate humanity from science. That's what human beings are all about.

Ask anyone why they come to PO.com: they'll tell you "to learn and to solve problems". Any you reply: "Learning and solving problems is the problem.

Carl,

Like everyone else onboard, you can interpret what is written any foolish way you like while you blindly follow the blind.

However, I'm tired of spending time and effort fixing the messes from the last round of "Gee, look at the nifty thing we invented to save humanity time and effort". Your outlook represents infantile science (i.e., merely learning and solving a problem) that this planet has had enough of. We need more mature science (i.e., a thorough understanding of the system before we futz with it), learning before the mess happens. More access to energy leads to more environmental degradation, get it?

Basil the Environmental Geologist Earth's Janitor.

You're just talking about other subjects within the realm of science.

At any rate, ALL areas within science will be explored by people. And it is grossly naive of you to think that it could possibly be any other way.

[crude_intentions]

Maybe someday they'll actually come up with real cold fusion. Followed by weapons based on that. Then the secret will get out and every high school kid with RadioShack parts can build a nuke.

You know you probably meant that as a joke but.......

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2007-03/popsci-videoteen-builds-basement-nuclear-reactor


Oh and lets not forget David "the Radioactive Boy Scout" Hahn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn

[rangerone314]

I think we're confusing science with applied technology here.

It is not knowledge itself that is evil but what we do with that knowledge. It is possible to understand the world around us without doing things that destroy the world around us.

We do really need to understand things better before tinkering with stuff that we don't understand. For example, my dislike of deer is well-known to my wife (I dislike having to put up the Berlin Wall practically to keep them away from my gardens) but she says that quite possibly the deer and other creatures like them that eat the undergrown may prevent much worse forest fires by taking away some of the fuel...

What tendency that needs to go away is not the curious human need to explore and understand, but the desire to go off half-cocked with just recently-acquired SURFACE knowledge and do stupid things, when a DEEPER understanding is necessary.

Genetic engineering is a perfect example, whether it is genetically-modified foods or treating diseases or creating new organisms. We've studied genetics for HOW LONG, and now we're ready to start dicking with it? I really begin to think for such, we really need atleast a hundred years more exploration before we can be justified in screwing with stuff like that.

Patience is needed, not heeding what we think are "pressing needs" .

[rangerone314]

Maybe someday they'll actually come up with real cold fusion. Followed by weapons based on that. Then the secret will get out and every high school kid with RadioShack parts can build a nuke.

You know you probably meant that as a joke but.......

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2007-03/popsci-videoteen-builds-basement-nuclear-reactor


Oh and lets not forget David "the Radioactive Boy Scout" Hahn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn

At least his name was David Hahn and not David Banner...

Actually I was making a reference to a Outer Limits episode (the modern series) where a kid builds a nuclear weapon.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Exam_(The_Outer_Limits)

[Carlhole]

I think we're confusing science with applied technology here.

The NIF is basic scientific research using applied science (lasers) built using knowledge gleaned from previous basic scientific research. You can't separate the two things. Knowledge builds on knowledge; tools yield new tools. Human Beings are tool-making creatures who seek to gain knowledge and exploit all aspects of their complex environment.

If fusion works, it's the ultimate green energy source. But NIF has other goals, one being to help scientists gain greater understanding of the universe itself; for example, they will be able to study conditions that exist inside stars.

The NIF is one of a few enormous scientific experiments underway at the moment which are intended to learn more about quantum mechanics and fundamental law governing the Universe.

If you are against these explorations into fundamental laws of the Universe, you are basically against the existence of human beings. It's that simple.

[americandream]

I suspect most folks aren't against knowledge per se Carl. However, I suspect theres something of a general malaise with knowledge that promises one or the other surefire remedy and then ends up exacerbating our problems.

I'ld go so far as to venture that the majority on here realise that we are headed for a cliff in the way we live and view with trepidation, anything that risks speeding up that process. Folks are just plain ol' scared, so try and be a little understanding with your technology fixit posts. We don't want an amplification of the bankster run casino and thats precisely what the advent of desktop computers did. On its own, the technology was great. In the hands of the banksters, it took trading into the realms of lunacy and the economic mayhem we find ourselves in.

Technology is ok. It's how we use it that spooks a lot of us.

I think we're confusing science with applied technology here.

The NIF is basic scientific research using applied science (lasers) built using knowledge gleaned from previous basic scientific research. You can't separate the two things. Knowledge builds on knowledge; tools yield new tools. Human Beings are tool-making creatures who seek to gain knowledge and exploit all aspects of their complex environment.

If fusion works, it's the ultimate green energy source. But NIF has other goals, one being to help scientists gain greater understanding of the universe itself; for example, they will be able to study conditions that exist inside stars.

The NIF is one of a few enormous scientific experiments underway at the moment which are intended to learn more about quantum mechanics and fundamental law governing the Universe.

If you are against these explorations into fundamental laws of the Universe, you are basically against the existence of human beings. It's that simple.

[Carlhole]

I suspect most folks aren't against knowledge per se Carl.

The engineering aspects of laser inertial confinement, the scientific theorization behind it, the thousands of scientists at work on the project... none of that interests the juvenile doomer majority here on PO.com.

They want their die-off and, dammit, they want it NOW! They want it so bad that they can only hope that the greatest potential green energy solution possible dies in its crib. ANY green energy solution that might rival fossil fuels will be very unpopular around here.

What drives this sickness? A hatred of science, a hatred of humanity, even a hatred of America.

Doomers hate America and anything that smacks of that sort of can-do spirit that, once, people were so proud of.

[americandream]

Why come on here and associate with these Doomers then? Seems rather pointless trying to convince the intransigent. Waste of time in fact. Unless of course, one reasonably concedes that there might well be a majority on here apart from these "Doomers" and an otherwise sanguine group of the curious, who have a genuine concern with the failure of tech fixes and such like and are not mere "Doomer's as you put it. In which case, my point stands and one should give due regard to their concerns.

I suspect most folks aren't against knowledge per se Carl.

The engineering aspects of laser inertial confinement, the scientific theorization behind it, the thousands of scientists at work on the project... none of that interests the juvenile doomer majority here on PO.com.

They want their die-off and, dammit, they want it NOW! They want it so bad that they can only hope that the greatest potential green energy solution possible dies in its crib. ANY green energy solution that might rival fossil fuels will be very unpopular around here.

What drives this sickness? A hatred of science, a hatred of humanity, even a hatred of America.

Doomers hate America and anything that smacks of that sort of can-do spirit that, once, people were so proud of.

[Carlhole]

Why come on here and associate with these Doomers then?

Because its an easy argument to win.

The Doomers first reaction to any news on a subject like laser fusion energy research is to trash it offhandedly and then justify themselves by saying something like, "The last thing the world needs is more science and technology; We need to concentrate on drastically shrinking our collective footprint on planet Earth". As if the rest of the world will drop what they are doing and heed their words!

Do the doomers believe that the rest of the world will actually quit trying to solve problems using science? How hopelessly naive!

What doomers are really saying is something only to themselves: "We shall dismissively ignore this very interesting and relevant energy news and pretend that it isn't exciting because it distracts us from our juvenile doom-fantasy which we have assiduously constructed over the past few years". In this way, doomer groupthink here on PO.com is maintained and the doom-dream can continue on without so much as a ripple of doubt that the zombie hordes might not soon come a-storming over the horizon.

However, the NIF facility has already been completed and has commenced experimentation. By 2010, ignition attempts will begin. So this is a story that is not going away anytime soon. In fact, it promises to become quite intriquing. If you're a betting man, you'll naturally have an interest in such huge, potentially game-changing, experiments as the NIF.

Speaking for myself, if The Discovery Channel aired a two-hour special on the NIF featuring all the details of the fusion science, the engineering aspects, the disagreements between scientists, potential failings of the approach, what it would mean if the experiment failed to achieve over-unity fusion energy release. what it would mean if it succeeded... I would cancel any other plans and stay home to watch it.