[deMolay]

Someone has to pay for the Bloated Gubmints entitlements. http://www.oftwominds.com/blogoct09/cri ... 10-09.html

[Novus]

The game is not rigged or anything. Care to roll.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this article's tone and content.

I hate government constantly raising taxes and overspending, but government actually having meaningful fines for crimes and enforcing them is something that should have happened long ago.

And whining that people shouldn't have to pay for minor crimes like parking tickets and driving without insurance doesn't cut it with me. Citizenship implies responsibility. Can't behave responsibly? Then pay a painful fine, and learn something.

Can't do the fine? Then don't do the crime.

Too many times I hear, for example, some waitress whining in a diner about how she had to go to court for driving without insurance, but the judge let her off. Yeah, too much spent for cigarettes, liquor, etc. to buy auto insurance, so *I* get to pay for it with uninsured motorist insurance.
(And what is the incentive for her to behave responsibly again?)

Or the guy whining about paying a $30 fine for parking in a handicapped space (he's 30ish and apparnently in perfect health). In a rational system, the $1000 fine he'd pay might convince him to park in a legal spot. (Or, perhaps 20 handicapped folks could pound him with their canes, if he couldn't afford the fine).

So - sorry, but whining that citizen irresponsibility is dandy, but government irresponsibility is terrible makes no sense to me. After all, WE ARE the government.

[Novus]

The article does come off a bit whinny but I have heard of people getting locked up for weeds on the lawn or ridding a bike without a helmet or simply walking around without an ID card. I don't have a lot of sympathy for idiots driving with no insurance. There are legitimate complaints of the police really harassing the poor for what really amounts to shakedown money.

[TreeFarmer]

While the author's tone may be questionable his message is right on the money. My ultra cautious wife, for the first time ever, mentioned to me that she has been seeing the police catching speeders at the end of a school zone in our town and that I should be careful when driving through that area. Now. by the end of a school zone I mean that people are past the school, kids, etc and are almost to the "end of the school zone sign." On top of that, it is a 15 MPH zone so it is extremely easy to get 5 mph over and be in jeopardy.

I am expecting to see more and more evidence of all types of fines being increased greatly due to local governments trying to raise extra revenue no matter what the cost to the citizens. As this recession deepens, and I think it is deepening, I expect to read of some very ugly incidents.

TF

[Sixstrings]

It's true, the poor are the ones getting squeezed at both ends in this "greatest recession."

Why? Well, it's easy.. the poor, hungry, and destitute are so demoralized and occupied with day to day survival that they don't complain -- they're easy targets. And more importantly, the poor don't have money to contribute to campaign funds.

The author is right, this has gotten completely out of hand. It's really easy to think "well, their fault you shouldn't let your insurance lapse and therefore your auto registration." It's easy to say that, unless you have yourself experienced personal financial devastation. Believe it or not, it can get so bad that the choice becomes "food or car insurance," or "car repair or car insurance," or "rent or car insurance," or "water bill or car insurance," or "infected tooth extraction or car insurance."

It is a really bad, nasty trap that millions of people fall into. Yeah, so some would say give up the car and walk. Well, jobs are scarce and in most communities bus service is very spotty (try putting that on your application, that you ride a bus -- good luck to you). So quitting your job and giving up your car in the hopes that you can find a job within walking or biking distance is a very hard choice to make.

And so, this is how it happens that the car insurance ends up lapsing. And then an email goes to the state and voila, your license is suspended -- cough up $400 sucka, PLUS proof of new insurance.

This abuse of the poor is only going to get worse -- you see, once you fall out of the middle class and into the underclass you no longer count for anything. Nobody speaks for the working poor or the unemployed, nobody gives a crap about them. This is THE American mindset -- an American couldn't care less about those without, until he himself is without.

[gollum]

A lot of these fines are far out of preportion for the offense, I suspect as time goes by resentment to all authority will increase. How will the national health bill go over that requires citizens already on the edge to enrich private insurance companies?

[MarkJ]

The author is right, this has gotten completely out of hand. It's really easy to think "well, their fault you shouldn't let your insurance lapse and therefore your auto registration." It's easy to say that, unless you have yourself experienced personal financial devastation. Believe it or not, it can get so bad that the choice becomes "food or car insurance," or "car repair or car insurance," or "rent or car insurance," or "water bill or car insurance," or "infected tooth extraction or car insurance."

It is a really bad, nasty trap that millions of people fall into. Yeah, so some would say give up the car and walk. Well, jobs are scarce and in most communities bus service is very spotty (try putting that on your application, that you ride a bus -- good luck to you). So quitting your job and giving up your car in the hopes that you can find a job within walking or biking distance is a very hard choice to make.

And so, this is how it happens that the car insurance ends up lapsing. And then an email goes to the state and voila, your license is suspended -- cough up $400 sucka, PLUS proof of new insurance.

The people driving without insurance, registration or inspections get caught more frequently due to more frequent roadblocks, more parking lot sweeps and more squad cars with license plate readers.


When New York required 1996 and newer vehicles to pass the OBDII emissions test, many poor people could no longer afford to keep vehicles on the road due to the cost of electronics/emission troubleshooting, labor, parts-markup etc. Dealers have them by the balls when they fail the emissions test. Since everything is computerized, the independent garages can't just slap an inspection sticker on a vehicle and/or pass a vehicle that previously failed at another garage until it's fixed.

Since many poor people live in urban areas with limited parking, many also have to sell vehicles, rent parking spots, share driveways and/or they pay a small fortune in parking tickets, towing, impound fees etc. Many people without off-street parking used to pay tickets as a living expense, but currently many cities tow and impound vehicles after they receive a few tickets.

Since revenue was declining, many cities also started ticketing vehicles more frequently.

The anti-blight laws targeting unregistered/unlicensed vehicles also prevent poor people from keeping, or working on a vehicle when they take it off the road due to financial issues.

Loss of a vehicle often equals loss of a job, multiple jobs an apartment, the ability to search for work etc. Entire poor households, relatives and neighbors often depend on a single vehicle.

[gollum]

So at what point does this start to hit the middle class? And at what point do the authorities start to be seen as an oppressive occupational army?

[Jotapay]

Well, I'm glad I'll have a place to sleep when it all falls apart!

[gollum]

Geralde Celente predicted all this, with chaos and discontent to follow.

[Sixstrings]

So at what point does this start to hit the middle class? And at what point do the authorities start to be seen as an oppressive occupational army?

It will never "hit" the middle class. More and more middle class will slip down into the underclass. Once you've fallen off that Ladder of Success, you lose your membership card to the "middle class."

[Novus]

So at what point does this start to hit the middle class? And at what point do the authorities start to be seen as an oppressive occupational army?

It will never "hit" the middle class. More and more middle class will slip down into the underclass. Once you've fallen off that Ladder of Success, you lose your membership card to the "middle class."

As for the when, it is already happening. Millions have been foreclosed on and live in tent cities now. And still millions more have had a visit from the repo man. Consider yourself lucky if you still have your membership card to the "middle class."

[perdition79]

Too many times I hear, for example, some waitress whining in a diner about how she had to go to court for driving without insurance, but the judge let her off. Yeah, too much spent for cigarettes, liquor, etc. to buy auto insurance, so *I* get to pay for it with uninsured motorist insurance.
(And what is the incentive for her to behave responsibly again?)

Read your words again and ask yourself "what is my incentive to continue to behave responsibly?" That's the scary part. People like me and you continue to either do right or not do at all, while others have no drive to be responsible at all. How long before enough people like us realize this and follow suit?

[Sixstrings]

Read your words again and ask yourself "what is my incentive to continue to behave responsibly?" That's the scary part. People like me and you continue to either do right or not do at all, while others have no drive to be responsible at all. How long before enough people like us realize this and follow suit?

It wasn't waitresses that flushed our economy down the toilet, it was the "responsible" elites.

[gollum]

Read your words again and ask yourself "what is my incentive to continue to behave responsibly?" That's the scary part. People like me and you continue to either do right or not do at all, while others have no drive to be responsible at all. How long before enough people like us realize this and follow suit?

It wasn't waitresses that flushed our economy down the toilet, it was the "responsible" elites.

Two thumbs up!!!!!!!! IMO it's far past time for the middle class (and by extension the poor too) to stop playing by the rules, it's time to screw big business and government at every single opportunity, no matter how petty.

[Gorm]

Am I getting this correctly,that a lot of posters here thinks that driving an uninsured car should be legal? Or a least not punished?

[EnergyUnlimited]

That is good question, Gorm.

Lets think about collapsing economy, where lack of ability to drive equals lack of job and (once benefits are gone - and time given these will be gone, even in Sweden) that equals lack of means to sustain family or may be even feed yourself.

So would you decide to starve or fail to pay insurance at that point?

Do you really think that insurance laws can be enforced once say 5%, 10%, 20% of families are unable to pay it but still must drive to earn a living?

Compulsory motor insurance is only a legal construct and will work only if substantial majority of population can easy afford it.

Once they cannot afford it in environment where driving is essential for earning your living, compulsory insurance construct will collapse by natural course of events.
Respective laws will either get ignored and finally scrapped or alternatively enforcement system will get sufficiently corrupt.

You will not lock 10 or 20% of population to prison (or confiscate their vehicles and so leave them to starve) because of some silly insurance laws.
And if you do, you will face a civil war pretty soon.

[Quinny]

For young drivers, the cost of insurance is often more than the cost of the car. Basic insurance should be included in road tax/fuel duties.

[EnergyUnlimited]

For young drivers, the cost of insurance is often more than the cost of the car. Basic insurance should be included in road tax/fuel duties.

On continent road tax is usually paid as a part of fuel price, so you would have to stay with proposal of adding insurance cost to fuel price.
In countries where car rather than driver is insured that would work fine.

In the UK when you pay your road tax to get this disc from Post Office you need to show insurance proof, however there is a choice at least in theory.

Lets say that you enclosed basic insurance in road tax fee.
That would work similar to US system where non-payment of insurance leads to automatic un-registering of your vehicle (in the UK valid tax disc is a proof that vehicle can lawfully be driven or left on public road).

On the other hand, should basic insurance be included in price of fuel, UK companies would lose their lovely ability to discriminate various groups of drivers base on "wrong" postal address or age or sex or offenses and penalty points accumulated.
All adversely affected groups would opt for "basic insurance" only.
So UK insurance industry would hate your idea.