[pablonite]

Oil And Environment: A Contradiction
http://www.countercurrents.org/goodchild271209.htm

...Perhaps the real moral of Catton’s Overshoot is that a truly wise person would lean against a lamppost on a busy corner and just watch the world go by. But I am not a fatalist: on the contrary, I suspect that a highly intelligent lemming would plan to be at the back of the crowd as the cliff approaches.

Peter Goodchild is the author of Survival Skills of the North American Indians

Heh, he should know lemmings don't run over cliffs!

[onlooker]

I have been for awhile a bit perplexed as to why even on this site , some like to rely on the argument that technology and/or the economy can sort of save us. It as though they did not understand that the economy is just a sub-set of the environment and is completely reliant upon it. Also that technology besides having negative uses or side-effects cannot take the place of the majestic efficiency of nature. Unless we discover a way to make water and food out of thin air. Transport ourselves and our goods by magic anywhere. Create minerals and ores from thin air. Etc.
Is it so hard to understand that our planet is finite and can only provide so much and can only handle so much waste byproducts. I have detected when us of the more doomerish ilk make these relevant points others harken always back to, Oh well this or that technology will save us or a better economic system or organization will do the trick. Our impact upon the planet because of our population size and because we current humans cannot and will not live as our primitive ancestors lived is incredible. There is no easy fix to this. Insights welcomed.

[SeaGypsy]

Stages

The stages, popularly known by the acronym DABDA, include:

Denial — As the reality of loss is hard to face, one of the first reactions to follow the loss is Denial. The person is trying to shut out the reality or magnitude of his/her situation, and begins to develop a false, preferable reality.
Anger — Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. The person in question can be angry with himself, or with others, or at a higher power, and especially those who are close to them. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"; "Why would God let this happen?"
Bargaining — The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow undo or avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Other times, they will use anything valuable as a bargaining chip against another human agency to extend or prolong the life they live. In essence, the individual cannot totally move into acceptance yet acknowledges the fact that what has happened cannot be undone. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise. For example, one may say "Can we still be friends?" when facing a break-up. Bargaining rarely provides a sustainable solution, especially if it is a matter of life or death.
Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the grieving person begins to understand the certainty of death. Much like the existential concept of The Void, the idea of living becomes pointless. Things begin to lose meaning to the griever. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and sullen. This process allows the grieving person to disconnect from things of love and affection, possibly in an attempt to avoid further trauma. Depression could be referred to as the dress rehearsal for the 'aftermath'. It is a kind of acceptance with emotional attachment. It is natural to feel sadness, regret, fear, and uncertainty when going through this stage. Feeling those emotions shows that the person has begun to accept the situation. Oftentimes, this is the ideal path to take, to find closure and make their ways to the fifth step, Acceptance.
Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, individuals begin to come to terms with their mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. This stage varies according to the person's situation. People dying can enter this stage a long time before the people they leave behind, who must pass through their own individual stages of dealing with the grief. This typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the individual, and a stable mindset.

Just the way it is.

[onlooker]

Thanks for the reply Gypsy, i have seen this outlined before. Yes I do believe it is about the daunting nature of accepting a really doom type outcome. We all rebel against it, I myself believe to some degree went through this especially the Denial stage but then quickly to the acceptance. However, ultimately what day by day carries me through is a kind of optimist mindset, I always say no matter how bad it will end and their is always a solution. Again, nice to know these stages Sea

[onlooker]

Oh and may I add that i think part of the Denial stage is a kind of delusional reasoning whereby one may wish to see just the way out without analyzing in depth the lack of options available

[SeaGypsy]

The wisdom of this simple set of ideas from Elizabeth Kubler-Ross is profound & it gives a simple barometer to measure attitudes & behavioural responses to acutely stressful unrelenting circumstance. As a palliative care nurse I experienced exactly the truth of this process directly in front of me every day. I definitely went through all the stages plus repeats, over my growing awareness of peak oil & related studies. I am now neither cornucopian, techno fixer, or end is nigh doomer. I am still here not so much to learn, as to share this time with a few people in similar awareness. I don't hassle people here unless they are being totally ridiculous in my opinion.

[onlooker]

Well I also feel I cannot be pegged by these labels, the closest would be a realist. Above all though i consider myself spiritual in so much as to me the physical world and physical body is not all their is. If someone wishes to call that a belief in God so be it. Oh and nice to make your acquaintance Sea Gypsy. By the way that is a catchy and alluring name.

[SeaGypsy]

Currently SEA as in South East Asia Gypsy these days lol, no boat at present, hopefully this will change soon. I'm off to Indonesia for the 3rd time in 2 months next week, arranging a place to build my next floating home. Meanwhile I am land gypsy, living in a caravan outside Darwin in far north Australia.

[onlooker]

wow, sounds exciting especially compared to my life currently work , home , work repeat and rinse

[sunweb]

I think it is incredibly difficult to wrap our heart, mind and spirit around the massive changes facing us. It is indeed traumatic for what it might (probably) means not just for us but for our love ones, children, grandchildren. Our hearts break. We want to fix it. So we do more technology and more ultimate harm. They are all first order solutions:
Watzlawick,P.; Weakland, J; and Risch, R. 1974. Change: Principles of Problem Formation and Problem Resolution. Norton. N.Y.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Dilworth, Craig. 2010. Too Smart for Our Own Good. Cambridge Univ. London.

[sunweb]

Here is another approach along with the venerable Kubler-Ross one.
Transitions
William Bridges has written a wonderful book called Transitions (with a name like Bridges it is only appropriate). According to Bridges there are four categories that encompass how we involve in the world. These are: engagement, identity, orientation, and enchantment. They weave together in our lives.

Bridges describes four disturbances experienced during endings. These lead into the transition (neutral) zone. The fundamentals of who we are get disturbed. We experience disengagement, disidentification, disorientation, disenchantment. Experiencing any one of these evokes the others. Our relationship to ourself (identity), others and the world (engagement) have been our compass and map. When we give those up we become disoriented. We don't know how we belong. We don't know where we are going. Time speeds and stands still in strange ways.

Disenchantment is the core. Disenchantment brings a sense of futility. That all we have done is a lie, useless, without meaning. The survivor self will raise his head in rage or "poor me". The defenses will scream to be used. The emptiness of disengagement, disidentification, and disorientation pales next to the feeling of meaninglessness.
More at: http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2011/03/transitions.html

[Newfie]

My thought is that it is a biological thing, some folks just don't have the capacity to hold that thought. Not stupid, just not capable in that aspect.

[Ibon]

When we disregarded nature on the ascent toward overshoot don't expect humans to suddenly pay attention as we approach the peak before consequences.

Wisdom needs to be embedded with the heat of consequences. Otherwise we will stubbornly attempt to "solve" overshoot with techno fixes etc.

Ignoring nature for several generations has given us not only a population in overshoot but a population woefully ignorant of nature and the functioning of ecosystems. How could this be otherwise when you have over 50% of the worlds population living in urban and suburban landscapes and as I have mentioned several times the most recent abstract manifestation which is the digital landscape.

It's not hard to understand the blind spot. The debate is about what is necessary to give us vision .

Being densely stupid about nature means that the solution has to be dense as well, kind of like a hammer. That is why I put all my bets on draconian consequences providing the opportunity for vision.

It will only be an opportunity, no guarantees. Some of us here believe that anything short of falling back to our historical hunter gatherer past pre agriculture is the only real viable solution. I am not sure about that but I do know that a hammer, perhaps a jackhammer fueled by renewable energy could do just the trick.

[onlooker]

Thanks for the reply Ibon, of course what you state is correct. It is just that after a few years of reading up on ecosystems and how they are being undermined and the consequences that it just seems such an OVERRIDING and CRUCIAL matter that, I would have expected others around the planet to also notice this. Yet as I was growing up, I was also ignorant of the importance of nature, so to expect others within the framework of our society and who either are not inclined (see Sea Gypsy) to know, have little access to this knowledge (many who lack internet) or have not reached the threshold to connect the dots ie. Nature is crucial if we are to survive, is asking too much. We will learn the "hard" way if we get that opportunity or second chance.

[dorlomin]

I have been for awhile a bit perplexed as to why even on this site , some like to rely on the argument that technology and/or the economy can sort of save us. It as though they did not understand that the economy is just a sub-set of the environment

Handwaving and begging for people to validate your emotions.

You start with the assumption that your vague hypothesis is right, then move on to asking what moral flaw is in people who disagree with you. Obviously people are only too keen to pander to this.

Do you have any specific questions or are you just here for the emotional cuddle of being told other people think that disagreeing with you proves they are not as heroic as yourself?

[dorlomin]

dorlomin,

denial
anger ???
bargaining
depression
acceptance

just sayin?

Fuming as I type.

[GHung]

Wow, I think some of you may be over-analyzing this thing. The vast majority of folks never get to the point of experiencing the steps of coming to terms with our overall predicament because they don't have the emotional, economic or intellectual capacity to get there. Our hyper-complex society has maxed them out. They stick to whatever niche they find themselves in, either by choice or fate, and don't consider things that will interfere with whatever story they've adopted for their future. Beside that, most humans are intellectually lazy. I see how hard many of you work at dealing with questions such as limits to growth and overshoot. I've seen many folks burn out on the subject.

Some guy who has a rent payment due, or 28 years left on a 30 year mortgage, trying to keep a job, kids in school who have to eat, maybe a 401k, a social circle of like-minded people coping with the same complexities and vagaries of everyday life, is unlikely to move out of his constructed comfort zone. Easier to adopt less threatening world views. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil,, NO! Not enough wiggle room to consider things they have no control over. Larger questions, no matter how critical, are better left to others or God.

Most folks are deeply invested in their lives as they are; as they have been. Considering anything that demands major behavioral changes is an admission that they've invested in the wrong things. Don't go there. Too much inertia for what is; the herd knows best.

Then there's the general reality that those who have the most capacity for change have the least incentive to do so.

[dohboi]

Actually, I think that most people realize at some level that the jig is up in some particular sector at least. And pretty much everyone thinks that they with they're small group are the only ones that understand the full level of f'd-up-ed-ness of the situation. People just focus on different parts of the catastrophe elephant.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/pl ... moz35&tt=b