[mortified_penguin]

http://www.buildingtalk.com/news/sla/sla150.html

I think the problem with international finance was that it was centred on the idea that houses were "wealth generators", insted of somthing that rises in price due to inflation, speculation and micro economic factors. I personaly see them as land more then capital.

The mortgages could cause an explosion in real demand, as although people may sympathise with the idea of a purchase of solor panals, like property, they are put off the long term investment by the short term costs.

The global financial system would actuel be be very usefull if it were based on mortgages for somthing that actuely did generate capital, in the form of energy from solor panels. Banks could packege of the debts for instant profit, in a kind of "colateral debt obligation" style investment, for instant profit, and then use the monney mortgage yet more more solor panels.

From a macroeconomic view point i see the great international pyrimid banking scheme as a way to consume oil derivatives in exchange for debt; on what we will do for them in the future. Prehaps we could save the world financial centre, and be able to bring ourselves into a position where that debt could one day be payed off by using the same insitutions that caused so much harm, to do so much good, providing real investment and generate real capital.

The extra capital and reduced could give us time to diversify and localise our economy.

Or prehaps i'm in way over my head. What do you think? is there someone out there from an economics/finance background who can share their expertise on this?

Can the same banking institustions that has caused so much harm be used a again to do good?

[Ludi]

"neither a borrower nor a lender be"*

* not from a musical *

* a cookie to anyone who can name this very obscure and extremely dated reference

[Thralen]

"neither a borrower nor a lender be"*

Would you be looking for Act 1, scene 3 of Hamlet? Where Polonius is giving Laertes advice?

or would you be looking for the reference to it in "Poor Richard's Almanack" by Benjamin Franklin?(writing as Richard Saunders)

Thralen

[SeaGypsy]

Neither a borrower nor a lender be
Meaning

Literal meaning.

Origin

From Shakespeare's Hamlet, 1603:

LORD POLONIUS:
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

If solar panels lasted forever this might be the basis for a decent ponzi scheme.
God knows the banks are keen to find some new ponzi scam, maybe you should talk to them penguin?

[Graeme]

Solar Power Is Now an Option for Even the Most Cash-Strapped Suburbanites

Say hello to the thing that could save our sun-splashed suburban lifestyle: affordable residential solar power that puts roof-top solar panels within reach of the most cash-strapped America consumer. This breakthrough is not a result of technological innovation, but a new financing scheme cooked up on Wall Street called a "residential solar lease," a no-money-down, low-monthly plan that has made solar electricity cheaper than the stuff we get by wire. It's an old approach to a new source of energy, and it is taking California by storm.

"Go solar for $0 down. Now you can afford to go solar without the high initial cost of installing a system. Instead of buying the equipment, you simply lease it," boasts the Web site of SolarCity, a well-financed Silicon Valley start-up that has been pioneering the residential solar lease.

alternet

[mortified_penguin]

I know i'm way over my head here, but i wanted to put forward the concept of a financial mechanism to make solar panels affordable, and putting the financial sector back to good use.

I was not saying that this obscure reference will be the begining of a world recovery, didn't mean to sound too optimistic. It doesn't have to be a ponzi scheme, it could be regulated, and without all that fractional reserve banking too.

Sombody else made a better post now anyway.

Obviously i cant even spell them.

Guess i like my wishfull thinking.

[mortified_penguin]

Houses don't last forever, btw, and solar panels actuely last a very long time.

May i ask, would a bank like northen rock be just as screwd if it mortaged solar panels?

I thought that the big problem here is that people mistaken a speculative bubble for the generation of wealth? Banks were lending to people who could not afford them, beliveing that so long as house prices rise they could get their monney back right?

[mortified_penguin]

Better then my post, and it saves me the embarassment of having to talk to people who know what there talking about.

[SeaGypsy]

Banks do not produce wealth in any real way ever. They play the monetary system to benefit themselves and their shareholders. If the usury system was banned they would instantly be out of business. The reason I suggest solar is a nice basis for the next big ponzi scheme is obvious. Look at recent history with the internet and dot com boom.
Suddenly everyone needed a pentium, then a pile of accessories, now a quantum gaming computer etc. Where did the $ come from? Mostly from credit cards or equity loans in some form. Then the digital products, companies and entities; programs and systems managers.
The solar revolution you are suggesting here Penguin, would follow exactly the same course, ending up in a similar place. The solar system you purchase on credit today for $20,000 will be worth $2,000 by the time you have finished paying for it; if indeed it is worth anything beyond scrap price. Who benefits? The banks. Who slaves away their live? Us mugs.

[SeaGypsy]

Mods, please merge threads?

[2cher]

Isn't the whole point of going solar or utilizing wind for most on here, to get away from the grid? I know it is for me. I don't want to keep making payments to somebody else for the rest of my life, to have to worry about some jackass showing up and disconnecting me.

Also haven't you people had enough of living your life based on credit, loans, credit cards? Isn't that the reason the country is in the financial fuck up it is in now?

[kpeavey]

This offers the ability to get solar PV on the roof without the investment. When TSHTF, will the note holders be able to claim the goods?

[mortified_penguin]

The solar revolution you are suggesting here Penguin, would follow exactly the same course, ending up in a similar place. The solar system you purchase on credit today for $20,000 will be worth $2,000 by the time you have finished paying for it; if indeed it is worth anything beyond scrap price. Who benefits? The banks. Who slaves away their live? Us mugs.

Good point, but how much would you make from energy? Houses are seen as investments because there values rise over time, and in neoclassical economics there are seen as capital, so the banks think they are generating capital. I'm thinking that the energy from the solar pannel should be the real capital, so to make it worth while you have to calculate the amount wealth per kwh for 5 or 10 years, and make sure that the intrest is set to make it worthwhile.

How much wealth would be created in the time the 10yr 90% efficiancy time frame, or the 20yr 80% efficiancy time?

[Thralen]

My biggest problem with this is twofold:
Since solar panels are not yet priced at the point where you get energy cheaper from them than from the grid and since when you are LEASING (note lease, not purchase. You don't own them you just rent them) something you tend to pay more for it than if you purchased it that makes this even less of a cost effective approach. The banks are just trying to find something else to try to make money from since they are losing so much on defaulting mortgages. They figure the people that still have houses have passed the test and can be counted on to pay so now they are trying to tempt them with something else.

Here's a thought, tuck the money you'd pay on it away and outright buy it when you have enough (just like the proper way to save for a down payment on a house except save for the whole thing). By that time there may have been sufficient solar advances to make it more cost effective and you won't be paying through the nose over the course of years. No, you don't have the panels on the roof immediately but you also don't have capital tied up in a lease instead of an outright purchase.

Thralen

[lonewolf]

My 20,000 thousand Euro's worth:

The economics of photovoltaics (in any currency, at any point in time) is irrelevant. Physical reality (limits) prevent widespread availability. The limiting factors are materials (especially rare earth metals) and the energy to extract, process, manufacture, deliver, etc.

PV panels require the metals Indium and Gallium in their manufacture. Both are exceeding rare earth elements, already in extreme demand (and constrained) relative to Earth's (in)abundance High-grade silicon is also increasing constrained and energy intensive to produce. There is NO way that even 20% of American'ts can have 'their' PV panels much less the rest of the planet too. Even if we gave up all flat screen TV/s/monitors and recycled the metals in all that exist, only a few % of the US population could access PV.

"Alternative energy" is an oxymoron and a deliberate LIE. There is only one energy source on Earth, namely Sol. PV panels are made from 'fossil' solar energy just like 99.9% of everything else you have, know, use to stay alive. PV panels/systems are NOT remotely "sustainable"- PERIOD. People who promote 'alternative energy' as a solution or some sort of panacea are effing deliberate MORONS, and therefore effing dangerous.

Another note, PV panels may in fact last "a long time" (25 years+ they claim). However, the charge controller does not last nearly as long. Nor do batteries. From personal experience, (top-quality) solid state charge controllers last from 2 to 4 years on average and must be replaced with regularity or the PV panels become entirely worthless (zero usable output). Similarly, batteries must be replaced. Minimally discharged, properly maintained high-quality lead-acid batteries last no more than 10 years even if oversized relative to daily loading.

To 'think' that even a significant fraction of US connedsummers can ever access even minimal solar panel systems us categorically and utterly delusional - even if they were given away free of charge. The materials do not exist, the energy inputs do not exist (unless extracted at someone(s) else's expense), and the support/maintenance systems will not exist/continue.

Green is not only the newest Ponzi scheme, but is also the new religion and the new wanton delusion for promoting mass complacency and for continued ignorance of the extent/degree of your personal problem(s).

OTOH, don't get me wrong, I do 'luv' my off-grid PV system. I can watch as 'civilization' implodes with hot buttered popcorn from a relatively safe distance and be 'lovin' it'. Which makes me a complete asshole and glad of it. Bye bye bipeds.

[Novus]

We had threads on this dating back to 2004 but the idea of a "green mortgage" didn't go anywhere. For those that have not noticed the banks and TPTB don't use loans and debt to for wealth generation but for wealth confiscation. An idea like this would never work with the current banking cartels in place. There must be an economic revolution first before any idea such as this could take off. As it is certainly not a new idea.

[Gerben]

If you finance solar panels in the Netherlands by increasing your mortgage, you can deduct the intrest cost from your taxable income.

[yesplease]

PV panels require the metals Indium and Gallium in their manufacture. Both are exceeding rare earth elements, already in extreme demand (and constrained) relative to Earth's (in)abundance.

Only about 15% of panel production requires rare earth elements, and most of that is CdTe that doesn't require Indium or Gallium.

High-grade silicon is also increasing constrained and energy intensive to produce. There is NO way that even 20% of American'ts can have 'their' PV panels much less the rest of the planet too. Even if we gave up all flat screen TV/s/monitors and recycled the metals in all that exist, only a few % of the US population could access PV.

"Alternative energy" is an oxymoron and a deliberate LIE. There is only one energy source on Earth, namely Sol. PV panels are made from 'fossil' solar energy just like 99.9% of everything else you have, know, use to stay alive. PV panels/systems are NOT remotely "sustainable"- PERIOD. People who promote 'alternative energy' as a solution or some sort of panacea are effing deliberate MORONS, and therefore effing dangerous.

Another note, PV panels may in fact last "a long time" (25 years+ they claim). However, the charge controller does not last nearly as long. Nor do batteries. From personal experience, (top-quality) solid state charge controllers last from 2 to 4 years on average and must be replaced with regularity or the PV panels become entirely worthless (zero usable output). Similarly, batteries must be replaced. Minimally discharged, properly maintained high-quality lead-acid batteries last no more than 10 years even if oversized relative to daily loading.

To 'think' that even a significant fraction of US connedsummers can ever access even minimal solar panel systems us categorically and utterly delusional - even if they were given away free of charge. The materials do not exist, the energy inputs do not exist (unless extracted at someone(s) else's expense), and the support/maintenance systems will not exist/continue.

Green is not only the newest Ponzi scheme, but is also the new religion and the new wanton delusion for promoting mass complacency and for continued ignorance of the extent/degree of your personal problem(s).

OTOH, don't get me wrong, I do 'luv' my off-grid PV system. I can watch as 'civilization' implodes with hot buttered popcorn from a relatively safe distance and be 'lovin' it'. Which makes me a complete asshole and glad of it. Bye bye bipeds.

You claim to have an off-grid PV system, but don't know that most panels are still made w/ good old Si, and the majority of thin film panels don't even use Indium or Gallium? Hell, most inverters are warrantied for ~5-15 years. I'm guessing that you're just BS'ing in order to spread FUD, but I suppose it's possible that you have no clue about your own system and are getting ripped a new one purchasing inverters every couple years. For that matter, renewables supplied about 7% of world energy consumption in 2004, and have continued to grow since then, so saying that 99.9% of everything made comes from FF energy is bunk. How's that astroturfing going anyway?

[thuja]

Next month I'm putting a 2 kw system that will effectively cost me 1,000$. It costs 10,300 to install and I get 9,300$ back in rebates over 4 years. Pretty much a no-brainer. The best part is I could do the same thing again next year and add another 2 kw. I have plenty of southern facing roof and I could net zero in electric use at about 4-5 kw in PVs or about 25 panels.

I'm not sure on the limits on availability but right now its a frickin' deal in Oregon. Rebates were created when the price of solar was high and now solar PV systems have plummeted in price. This is one investment that is easy. The system is grid tied but if things start to get really weird (frequent blackouts) I'll make it so it can convert its energy to batteries.

[rangerone314]

Can the banks be used with solar to save the world?

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.